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VW38/03 - The oldest surviving Beetle
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jvulich
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: VW38/03 - The oldest surviving Beetle Reply with quote

Moderator note:
This topic was created by splitting it off from the VW38/06 topic.
I copied a summary that was posted in this thread by Björn Schewe below. If anyone wants to add any information please post in this thread or PM EverettB and I will add any additional information or photos that are made available.

Summary:
In the early 1940, VW 38/03 was modified into a wooden gas car, based on a type 82 Chassis

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After the war, the car was found in a hidden corner of the Volkswgaen Factory.

A Volkswagen dealer of the small city of Kreinsen restored the car in 1953 / 1954. They fixed a brandnew Oval window body on the lowered Type 82 chassis and changed details like the rear window, decklid and dashborad.

As the oldes survived Volkswagen beetle, the car was stocked in the non-official, historical Volkswagen collection wich was founded in the 1950s. Since the Volkswagen AutoMuseum opend, the car was on display.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In the late 1990, the car was restored for the second time by Oliver Herboltzheimer - he tried his best to bring the car in its original conditon from 1938.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It the past, he had detailed pictures of the restoration at his website , but actually they are deleted.http://www.radsatzwerkstatt.de/




Original post:
It is the oldest surviving body, the other car in the museum has a later body.
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kdfkid
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: 1938 Reply with quote

He splitejunkie,
sorry but the doors are orginal and by the way the only surveing doors from 1938( the carbio annd the Nr. 3 dont have orginal doors )
Bye Christian
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splitjunkie
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1938 Reply with quote

kdfkid wrote:
He splitejunkie,
sorry but the doors are orginal and by the way the only surveing doors from 1938( the carbio annd the Nr. 3 dont have orginal doors )
Bye Christian


That is what I was saying. Nr 3 has later doors and aprons and other bits and pieces but is the original body.

I was replying to to Jvulich who said that Nr 3 had a later body on it.

I have been on this thread since page one so I know that Nr 6 has the only set of original vw38 sedan doors known to exist.

I didn't realize that the cabrio had later doors.
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jvulich
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I've read, number 3 was restored by the factory using a later body which was then later doctored up to look more correct. I don't remember where I read it.
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Blue Baron
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I understand, No. 3 was converted into a woodburner late in the war, and then converted back into a regular sedan around 1950. Experts may have more information on this.

I've never seen any reference to the body being changed, and there are body details that are clearly VW 38. The factory did not care enough to doctor anything. Plus they would have needed a reference to copy from.
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Wanted: Granville Volkswagen dealership items, Tonawanda, N.Y.
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splitjunkie
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jvulich wrote:
From what I've read, number 3 was restored by the factory using a later body which was then later doctored up to look more correct. I don't remember where I read it.


That is definitely not correct.
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kdfkid
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:13 pm    Post subject: 1938 Reply with quote

Sorry - but this is correct !
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1938 Reply with quote

kdfkid wrote:
Sorry - but this is correct !


So when did this body replacement and doctoring take place?

Pictures of number 3 in the Keith Seume book from 1997 and Terry Shuler's The origin and evolution of the VW Beetle shows the dash and panel underneath are clearly not production parts. The panel underneath has the circular pressing with the radiating lines just like the part reproduced for number 6. The rear decklid is obviously correct and the rear vent has 24 slots per side. The car obviously has later doors, a later rear apron and later bumpers with banana guards, later tail lights and popes nose, a later steering wheel and a much later 25 hp engine as well as other incorrect parts. The car had obviously been patched up over the years.

Were portions of the roof, the decklid and the dash and panel underneith all transplanted before these pictures were taken?

I know the car was redone in the time since those pictures were taken and they made a repro correct popes nose and bumpers as well as a new paint job and interior. Was the body replaced during this restoration?
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kdfkid
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: 1938 Reply with quote

Hi Chris,
during the 2. restauration ( in the 90ths ) they found out that body and pan was changed ( i got the restaurion pictures ) In the 50ths when the car 1 time was restaured - they took a new split body and chassis and butchered parts from nr. 3 into this new body. The parts used were the dash, the rear window, the back lid and the front gas tank with holder. The rest of the car was not used. All other parts of the car were from a 1950 51 split .
Christian
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Björn Schewe
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the early 1940, VW 38/03 was modified into a wooden gas car, based on a type 82 Chassis

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After the war, the car was found in a hidden corner of the Volkswgaen Factory.

A Volkswagen dealer of the small city of Kreinsen restored the car in 1953 / 1954. They fixed a brandnew Oval window body on the lowered Type 82 chassis and changed details like the rear window, decklid and dashborad.

As the oldes survived Volkswagen beetle, the car was stocked in the non-official, historical Volkswagen collection wich was founded in the 1950s. Since the Volkswagen AutoMuseum opend, the car was on display.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In the late 1990, the car was restored for the second time by Oliver Herboltzheimer - he tried his best to bring the car in its original conditon from 1938.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It the past, he had detailed pictures of the restoration at his website , but actually they are deleted.http://www.radsatzwerkstatt.de/
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splitjunkie
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very interesting. Thanks to the both of you for the explanation. So only parts of the original body exist and the pan was changed at some point during the war.
We all know that the restoration of number 6 is far more accurate than number 3 but even as hacked up as number 6 was, there is far more of the original car than number 3.
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Björn Schewe
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
very interesting. Thanks to the both of you for the explanation. So only parts of the original body exist and the pan was changed at some point during the war.
We all know that the restoration of number 6 is far more accurate than number 3 but even as hacked up as number 6 was, there is far more of the original car than number 3.


Yes. Today a shame - but if you think about that the car was 15 year old when it was restored for the first time, that "matching number" was an unkonwn world and that everybody who was interested in vintage cars at that time was just a freak, we could be happy that the car was saved between all the cears.

It is the same like if you are restoring a 1999 New Beetle today.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the clarification that the car was remanufactured. Surprising they would piece together a body so long ago to keep certain details.
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Pictures to follow because no one reads words anyways.
Wanted: Granville Volkswagen dealership items, Tonawanda, N.Y.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue Baron wrote:
Thank you for the clarification that the car was remanufactured. Surprising they would piece together a body so long ago to keep certain details.


Yes that does seem strange. This does explain a few details that I thought were just updates that had been done on the car over it's life.

It has the weatherstrip channel around the decklid area. The car has a production H apron which would have had them but the two sides of the rear quarters have them as well. The firewall also has the little triangular tabs that were used for holding the tarboards in place. A later shell could certainly explain these very minor but later details being there.

These details were very clear in the pictures I mentioned.I don't know if they were addressed during the last restoration.
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Jack O'Neill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 1938 Reply with quote

kdfkid wrote:
The parts used were the dash, the rear window, the back lid and the front gas tank with holder. The rest of the car was not used. All other parts of the car were from a 1950 51 split .
Christian

...so, are you sayng that somewere there's a huge pile of discarded n° 3 parts? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
But seriously(ish), maybe someday those discarded parts would find their way to the Grundmanns garage, as it should be, and we'll have n° 3 ½!
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Undis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Everett,

I think this car deserves its own thread. I feel it's been a bit of a mystery as there has been very little information forthcoming about its history.

This is VW's own version on how the car ended up in their collection. This is from a book I purchased in the VW museum back in 1991. So they confirm that the car had been fitted with a wood generator and had parts or full running gear of a Kubelwagen fitted. Also it says that the car was dismantled and hidden but only the body was later recovered. This means they only had a somewhat damaged body to start with. Of course nothing is mentioned about them using a complete post-war body as the basis for the restoration.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some period photos of car VW38/03.

These look like they are from a publicity photo shoot. The purpose of this was not just to test the cars in all driving conditions but also to demonstrate to the public the capabilities of the new people's car. Check out the roof rack with skis.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another heavily airbrushed publicity shot. Just imagine pulling a trailer with this.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of photos of how the car looked like after its first restoration.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Undis wrote:
Another heavily airbrushed publicity shot. Just imagine pulling a trailer with this.

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No problem for No.3 pulling this Berger trailer, aprox. weigth is 250kg Razz
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