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Syncro Jael Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013 Posts: 2204 Location: Utah
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:43 pm Post subject: CV Joint "Blues" |
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I have replaced my half axle inner CV joint on the drivers side (3)three times in the past year. Same scenario each time:
Purchased NEW LoBro's, using REDLINE CV2 Grease, centered the axle in between the boots.
After a couple hundred miles I will begin to hear a clicking sound when turning to the left. So I will check the axle and it has moved towards the hub or stub axle shaft and will make contact during the turn and on acceleration from a stop. So I will re-center it in the boots and zip tie one boot to hold it there. Then after a few hundred more miles I will feel a slight "pop" when engaging the clutch from a dead stop. After (3)three times I know what that feeling is.
It is a pit that has developed in the star or center of the CV. There are usually a couple of them. I use plenty of grease and make sure it is worked well into the joints. Like this PHOTO:
This last time I purchased a complete half axle already assembled, installed it, and the same scenario happened again. I replaced it last weekend and it is smooth and quiet again. This time I did not use REDLINE and just used the grease that came with the kit. I have about 100 miles on it now.
I am not overly lifted and my measurements are around 19" on all four wheels. So I don't believe that is my issue.
What the heck could I be doing wrong? I use new GOOD parts and the same thing happens every couple thousand miles!
Same side, same thing each time.
Any ideas from the group? _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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flyindutchman Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2012 Posts: 112 Location: Vancouver,WA.
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I'm no expert but one thing I would check is if your axle shaft is the proper length. an automatic trans left side axle shaft is around 5/8" shorter (.661"). What if you've been running around with a short side and a regular side? I'm only saying this because I think I'm having the same issue on my 85' 2WD and just noticed this difference in shafts shown in the Bently.
Hope this helps out. |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10248 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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That's a good question, since there are 3 lengths of axles for the Vanagon.
So where are your pits forming? I take it that is NOT your CV pictured, right? If the CV is running at an angle, I'm trying to visualize if your wear pits would be in a different spot from one running at a stock angle?
I have a few pet theories about CVs and the variables in mfg. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Ever measure the centerline of your conversion driveline? |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9917 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:43 am Post subject: |
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The lengths shown in the Bentley are for the early axles. Bentley never added the later lengths. They were all slightly shortened in 83+ vans when the transmission position was moved back. Subtract about 1/4" from each of the lengths shown.
Mark
flyindutchman wrote: |
Ok, I'm no expert but one thing I would check is if your axle shaft is the proper length. an automatic trans left side axle shaft is around 5/8" shorter (.661"). What if you've been running around with a short side and a regular side? I'm only saying this because I think I'm having the same issue on my 85' 2WD and just noticed this difference in shafts shown in the Bently.
Hope this helps out. |
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Syncro Jael Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013 Posts: 2204 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Ever measure the centerline of your conversion driveline? |
I am not sure what centerline you mean. Guessing you want to know if the transaxle and engine are dead center in the vehicle? But when recently replacing the transaxle I spent a lot of time getting everything centered and the flange angles the same. I have no vibration issues with the driveline, but can definitely feel when a CV joint is starting to give me issues. I am getting pretty anal about feeling and hearing changes in this van. I very seldom listen to the stereo anymore
Quote: |
So where are your pits forming? I take it that is NOT your CV pictured, right? If the CV is running at an angle, I'm trying to visualize if your wear pits would be in a different spot from one running at a stock angle? |
Yes, this is not a photo of my CV. But the pits are about in the same location. Once I get off work I will photo the CV and post them on here.
Quote: |
What if you've been running around with a short side and a regular side? |
When I had the axles off I did position them side by side for length. They are the same. I am not sure about the new half axle in length, but it was made for a manual transaxle in a 1987. _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17106 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: |
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I had a similar failure. I paired a new Lobro CV with a good used OE CV. By comparison, the new CV was extremely tight compared to the good worn used one. I believe what happened is the worn joint handled all of the plunge and the new joint was free to run in basically one spot.
I replaced all 4 this time with new Lobro's and will pull them apart sometime this fall and inspect. I was not happy at all with the finish of the new joints. I expect if they are "wearing" in, the debris is with the grease.
On the one that prematurely failed, I was using Redline CV2 grease. For all 4 this time I decided to remove the Redline from the equation and use the grease supplied by Lobro.
I have no proof to the above and am basing it strickly on my recent experience. _________________ ☮️ |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Interesting.
I have not used Redline CV grease ever for CVs.
It does get used on all bushing and sleeve installations.
I also coat flanges with it, but do not pack with it.
I am having excellent CV life with Swepco HiTemp CV grease and a CAT grease that Alaric posted about 18 months ago.
The Lucas and Redline greases seem thin to me and the fact that both can be purchased at the discount FLAPs has helped create higher supply, but quality has fallen right off....my opinion.
I had a few cases of the Swepco product in the classifieds and the tubes flew out of here at $14 each.
Hopefully some of the Volks who purchased them will chime in. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17106 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: |
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The Redline CV2 grease should work for CV joints.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=82 That said we were using it in our FWD racecars along with the other products they supported us with at the time.
When troubleshooting a failure it is often easier to eliminate a possible source to zero in on the actual problem. I suspect it is not the RedLine grease, but the fit and finish of the new Lobro CV. Out of the box new, they are just short of "welded" in their movement. Taking the redline out of the equation was a place to start. I would expect a new CV properly greased to last at least 30,000 miles.
Note. I have started disassembling the CV's to pack them. I coat all surface liberally with grease, reassemble the joint and then work grease from the back side to the front moving the joint all about it's axis as I go. In other words, every spot has grease on it. _________________ ☮️ |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I agree and have been "prepping" brand new CVs for years.
The grease Alaric posted about literally does not break down in Vanagon and Vanagon Syncro use....at least not yet in my trials.
It is designed for bulldozers and sees far more heat and pressure on a job site than in a Van.
Gold in color and cost, so some may not want to bother researching it.
Great stuff.
Grease is your friend, or not |
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Phishman068 Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007 Posts: 1867 Location: Pittsburgh PA (ish)
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Syncro Jael Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013 Posts: 2204 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Just ordered (4)four tubes of Swepco @ $11.95 each.
_________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:57 am Post subject: Re: CV Joint "Blues" |
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Syncro Jael wrote: |
centered the axle in between the boots |
some ideas to consider:
try not fastening the small end of the boots to the axle
best to replace joints in pairs, or at least, move the outer to the inner side if youre replacing the inner only, but put the new one on the wheel side instead...
I look forward to learning from you what actually solves the problem _________________ My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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hans j Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 2714 Location: Salt Lake City UT
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint "Blues" |
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Jon_slider wrote: |
I look forward to learning from you what actually solves the problem |
Me too. I have 20,000 miles on my joints that were unknown when I got the van. I disassembled them and regreased with some green sticky boat wheel bearing grease and no issues. I'll be replacing them a couple at a time soon when I start going with 944 joints though, but definitely keep them as spares. _________________ 1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181 |
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Syncro Jael Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013 Posts: 2204 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint "Blues" |
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Jon_slider wrote: |
some ideas to consider:
try not fastening the small end of the boots to the axle
best to replace joints in pairs, or at least, move the outer to the inner side if youre replacing the inner only, but put the new one on the wheel side instead...
I look forward to learning from you what actually solves the problem |
I have left the small boot end unfastened each time until the axle moves outward and begins to make contact with the stub axle. Then I re-center it in the boots and zip tie it to keep it from moving. Maybe this is what is making the inner CV wear in one spot I have also just re-centered it and slid the small end on the boot to help apply more force towards the transaxle.
I have also replaced both joints at the same time.
I too am looking forward to learning what is happening and stop having to perform this greasy job every couple months. But I have learned a lot about CV's, noises, and now more grease! _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint "Blues" |
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Syncro Jael wrote: |
slid the small end on the boot to help apply more force towards the transaxle. |
surprised youre not reporting torn boots
as the new joint is tight, putting it at the wheel is more likely to reduce tapping the stub axle than putting a tight joint at the tranny and keeping the used loose CV at the wheel stub side... just a guess
axles always centrifuge to the wheel side, doubt the flexy boot bellows can prevent that, my guess is the circlips are what controlls for that.
you may want to delve into axle length to control plunge depth
great respect for your diligence and shared learning _________________ My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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1vw4x4 Banned
Joined: June 22, 2005 Posts: 472 Location: Pgh. PA
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: CV Joint "Blues" |
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Who ever is making these CV joints you have is doing a real crappy job.
Just by looking at the picture you post, you can clearly see the "ways"
and not machined smooth. Also I don't see any evidence of the surface
hardening found on a good quality joint. Have you tried taking these
back under warranty? For some reason people don't seam to do this anymore. All that does then is tell the manufacture that they can sell
more junk.
Syncro Jael wrote: |
I have replaced my half axle inner CV joint on the drivers side (3)three times in the past year. Same scenario each time:
Purchased NEW LoBro's, using REDLINE CV2 Grease, centered the axle in between the boots.
After a couple hundred miles I will begin to hear a clicking sound when turning to the left. So I will check the axle and it has moved towards the hub or stub axle shaft and will make contact during the turn and on acceleration from a stop. So I will re-center it in the boots and zip tie one boot to hold it there. Then after a few hundred more miles I will feel a slight "pop" when engaging the clutch from a dead stop. After (3)three times I know what that feeling is.
It is a pit that has developed in the star or center of the CV. There are usually a couple of them. I use plenty of grease and make sure it is worked well into the joints. Like this PHOTO:
This last time I purchased a complete half axle already assembled, installed it, and the same scenario happened again. I replaced it last weekend and it is smooth and quiet again. This time I did not use REDLINE and just used the grease that came with the kit. I have about 100 miles on it now.
I am not overly lifted and my measurements are around 19" on all four wheels. So I don't believe that is my issue.
What the heck could I be doing wrong? I use new GOOD parts and the same thing happens every couple thousand miles!
Same side, same thing each time.
Any ideas from the group? |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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He just said the photo posted above is not his. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17106 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a brand new GKN/Lobro CV joint that I posted about some time back. They are heat treated, you can see the bluing, but the finish is rather coarse.
1vw4x4 how about telling us where you get your quality ones from? This particular joint came from either IMC or WorldPac. They don't make the parts they resell them. If they are GKN/Lobro, no matter who resells them, you'll get the same part. GKN/Lobro at one time was the OE supplier.
As Dylan suggested, some prepping of the rails might improve the time, but these are CV joints, they should just work. My Acura has 200K on the joints and boots. I am not so interested in a warranty as much as not having to redo a job that honestly should last for 60K with the boot supplied. _________________ ☮️ |
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Syncro Jael Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013 Posts: 2204 Location: Utah
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I do like the idea of polishing them. My last set of LoBros were also very tight.
I was just speaking to a co-worker who has sand rails about his CV joints. His last set cost about a grand!
But he said they are polished so smooth and slippery they about fall apart in your hands.
That would be the extreme!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Am-Porsche-930-Or-911-...4897.l5660
He will still wear a set out over the summer at the dunes. _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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