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blue72beetle
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2008
Posts: 846
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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 Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: Distributor, Carb, timing confusion |
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1971 Bus, 1600DP
34PICT3 Carb
SVDA Distributor, VW P/N: 113-905-205 T
Pertronix Ignition
Engine is running well enough, idle is high, but it gets great mileage and good enough power (for a type 1 powered bus). Working on getting this in tune and dialed in.
I'm confused as to how I should time this thing. From my searches on here, everyone says with SVDA's you should set it to 28* BTDC @ 3500rpm, hose disconnected and plugged.
Bentley is no help, as it doesn't say anything about SVDA or DVDA, from my understanding, 71's had DVDA but almost no one runs those anymore.
Plugging the part number into Old Volks home, I get this, which seems to match up to the Bentley.
| Quote: |
Bus & Pickup 1969-1970 * 1600
Distributor: VW 113-905-205T, Bosch 0231 137 035 or 036
Can Use: VW 113-905-205M, Bosch 0231 137 021
Replacement: VW 111-905-205AA, Bosch 0231 137 039
Points: 01 013
Points Replacement Plate Assy: VW 111-905-227B, Bosch 1237 110 139
Condensor: 02 007 - Note: If equipped w/AC use 02 069
Rotor: 04 033
Cap: 03 010
Parts Kit (Washers, Shims & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 070 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 024 (Replacement uses 1237 121 400)
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 0deg TDC Static or @ 800-950rpm w/strobe w/vacuum hose disconnected and plugged
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum (Advance Only): 17-19deg @ 1.3 In. Hg, 32-35deg @ 3.2 In. Hg |
I haven't had a problem with the pertronix yet, but would it be better to ditch it and go back to points? Have points in my Bug, and it runs outstanding.
Finally, should I do the timing before or after I set the idle?
Thanks for any help
_________________
-Andy-
-1970 Ghia-
-1971 Bus 1776 Microsquirt EFI- |
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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A 205T won't play well with that PICT3, also it has no mechanical advance so it's best if you can set it static. You need a better distributor.
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blue72beetle
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Joined: April 23, 2008
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Why won't it play well? It seems to drive fine, and I get great mileage. Although I know that timing could be off, and it still seem to run fine, yet secretly destroying itself in the meantime.
What would be 'better'?
I found some more out in the garage.
>113-905-205M, this one is for a 68, and doesn't seem to be any different than the one I have on there now.
>043-905-205, OldVolks says this goes on a 74 Beetle Federal Manual Trans
>A cheap generic 009.
>A DVDA, but it's so worn out I can't make out the numbers.
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-1970 Ghia-
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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The 043 905 205 would likely be better but you didn't mention the letter that follows the numbers.
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Vince Waldon
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Joined: November 07, 2010
Posts: 451
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
| Why won't it play well? |
Specific carbs have specific vacuum "signatures", and for best performance and economy it's a good idea to use a distributor that's expecting the same signature.
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Vince Waldon Edmonton Alberta CANADA
1970 baywindow |
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blue72beetle
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Joined: April 23, 2008
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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No letters on that one, it's this:
| Quote: |
Beetle 1974 * 1600 Federal Manual Trans
Distributor: VW 043-905-205, Bosch 0231 170 034
Can Use: VW 113-905-205AL, Bosch 0231 146 101, VW 043 905 205 ZB (Mexico) (See Note Below)
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 059
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe and w/single vacuum hose disconnected and plugged
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8-12deg Adv; Centrifugal: 7-12deg @ 1600rpm, 20-25deg @ 3800rpm
NOTE: Volkswagen (with Bosch's help) now makes this distributor in Mexico and is available brand new and ready to install. Please click this link:Beetle (Puebla, Mexico) With Points Distributor to view the specs. |
Doing more searching, learning more, confusing myself more also 
I guess I was wrong in calling my 205T an SVDA. So it's really just an SV-A.
From what I've found, the ideal correct distributor for a 71 w/ a 34p3 would be the 205Q DVDA distributor.
Now keep in mind I'm not smart when it comes to carbs and distributors. The things to look at when putting the two together is the Advance/Retard range, correct? Putting a distributor on an engine/vehicle with wildly different curves than what is was designed for will give you sub-par performance. How do you make the connection with the proper carb then? Is it just a matter of trusting the german engineers that said, "This carb goes with this distributor" Seems like this goes far beyond my education.
| Vince Waldon wrote: |
Specific carbs have specific vacuum "signatures", and for best performance and economy it's a good idea to use a distributor that's expecting the same signature. |
That makes perfect sense.
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-1970 Ghia-
-1971 Bus 1776 Microsquirt EFI- |
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
| Seems like this goes far beyond my education. |
I could link lists of carb base numbers and distributor curves but maybe it's a waste of time in your case? 
Vince got to the root of the matter, there's also different curves and vacuum ranges, one may give you all it's vacuum advance at part throttle and slower RPM while another adds it slowly through a wider range, it's all dependant on the weight of the vehicle it's meant to work in and the gearing.
The 74 bug one may be very close to the 205Q, need the full number yet, the mechanical advance numbers @ X RPM as well as vacuum advance range @ X Hg is what matters, many bug distributors lay on far too much advance in the mid RPM range, a light bug quickly accelerates past that zone while a bus lingers there and the detonation could be terminal.
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blue72beetle
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Joined: April 23, 2008
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Well I found a 205Q last night night and bought it, it's on the way in the mail. Looks like it's in decent shape. If not, I'll put this link here as a reference.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=558307
I plan on building a 2007 for my bus next year, but that will probably take me awhile so I'd like to make this stock 1600 as correct and long-lasting as possible.
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:04 am Post subject: |
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You won't be sorry, it likely won't be a night and day instant performance increase but in certain situations like climbing long hills or putting along in slow traffic you'll notice it's much better. Some folks get so used to the way thier VW runs with mixed parts they aren't aware just how nicely it could work with the right stuff.
While you await it's arrival pull your carb and see what jets it has in it. Also tell us what exhaust you have.
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blue72beetle
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Joined: April 23, 2008
Posts: 846
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:08 am Post subject: |
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That was going to be my next question, if this is a bug carb or bus carb, and what's the difference if there is one.
I'll be out of the state the rest of the week so it'll have to wait until the weekend.
Thanks for all your help!
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-1970 Ghia-
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airschooled
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Posts: 12716
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:18 am Post subject: |
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The 205Q was a night and day difference from my aftermarket 009; I just loved the way it pulled in the lower RPM range. It took me three distributors to find enough parts for a working 205Q. The vacuum advance AND retard can ports have to work- you can't just plug or leave one off.
Be sure to check the rear (rear of car) of your carb for a horizontal vacuum port for the vacuum retard hose. I have seen good German 34pict3 carbs with no vacuum retard port.
Good luck!
Robbie
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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And to clarify, its not that the 113 905 205 T distributor is a bad distributor its that it is not a good match for the 34 PICT 3 carburetor. It was designed to run with the 30 PICT series carburetors.
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blue72beetle
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Points, condensor, cap, and rotor are coming in the mail tomorrow for my 205Q.
How do I identify which jets the carb has?
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-1970 Ghia-
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
| How do I identify which jets the carb has? |
Remove them and look, each one has a tiny number or number/letter stamped into it somewhere.
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airschooled
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
Points, condensor, cap, and rotor are coming in the mail tomorrow for my 205Q.
How do I identify which jets the carb has? |
Once you've got them out, post your setup here if you have any questions. Here are the factory jetting assignments for Type 1 and 2 VWs from '71, which was the only year USA buses had the 34pict3 carb:
Note that the bus and bug jets are different. At first the bus appears to be leaner, with a smaller main (fuel jet). But notice that the air correction jet (which is an air, not fuel jet,) is smaller on a bus, so the overall ratio is the same mixture, but just less of it on the bus. I firmly believe this was a factory "built-in governor" much like the tiny carb and exhaust, which helped limit the overall power of these cars so you could floor them through the desert all day happy as can be. You don't need a laboratory or wind tunnel to see that the bug is lighter and more aerodynamic… = easier on the engine. 
Many folks on here (myself included) have comfortably arrived at a slightly different jet setup from the factory. Remember, they were new cars, and along with teenagers flooring them all day and night, they had to deal with emissions. We don't really now, (deal with emissions, that is  ) so it would do your bus a favor to find a mixture of jets that encourage best engine longevity then economy. Your jetting will also be affected by your engine displacement, exhaust, timing, lack of routine valve adjustments (hint hint,) elevation, and driving style.
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Hummer
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Geez, you guys sure know your stuff. I am running Empi-Clone 34ICT and was wondering about the distributor.
I have much to learn...  |
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blue72beetle
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I may just install the distributor and time it. Considering there's a show next weekend I want to take the bus to, I'm a little nervous about pulling jets.
Plus, I'm deploying in 3 weeks and will be gone quite awhile.
I'm more positive than not, that this carb was intended for a bus. I bought it from a reputable carb rebuilder/seller on here awhile back. I can't find the emails, but I'm pretty sure I told him it was going on a bus.
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airschooled
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
I may just install the distributor and time it. Considering there's a show next weekend I want to take the bus to, I'm a little nervous about pulling jets.
Plus, I'm deploying in 3 weeks and will be gone quite awhile.
I'm more positive than not, that this carb was intended for a bus. I bought it from a reputable carb rebuilder/seller on here awhile back. I can't find the emails, but I'm pretty sure I told him it was going on a bus. |
Don't be nervous- they're little screws with holes in them. You could just look in the holes and read the numbers to us, and put it back together the same way it came apart. Give us the name of the carb rebuilder/seller. Don't be shy. Volksbitz? Yep- I tried 12 different jet combos and the one he set me up with has been the most successful. Somebody else?
Pulling jets is easier than getting a strange distributor to work. Every engine is different, and you'll need some time to really test it out, unless you like carrying your timing light and screwdrivers back to the engine compartment every few minutes to make tweaks and tests on a road trip.
It's your butt in the seat, for sure, but we could prevent that from being a dropped valve seat. Stress-free trips are more fun.
Robbie
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blue72beetle
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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I got the carb from Mark Harney a few years ago. Based on his feedback it seems plenty of people were happy with his work, but he's out of the business now. Obviously the carb is working, but the automatic choke isn't. That's a different problem to tackle though...
So I checked my flange numbers and while I didn't open the carb up yet, the pilot jet is a 55 which is for a bug. So it's a good bet this has bug jets in it.
However.....
I have the old carb this bus came with, and it has bus jets (125, 60z, 57.5) Is it a matter of just unscrewing them and replacing them? I guess I was under the impression that there is an adjustment with the jets.
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airschooled
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| blue72beetle wrote: |
I got the carb from Mark Harney a few years ago. Based on his feedback it seems plenty of people were happy with his work, but he's out of the business now. Obviously the carb is working, but the automatic choke isn't. That's a different problem to tackle though...
So I checked my flange numbers and while I didn't open the carb up yet, the pilot jet is a 55 which is for a bug. So it's a good bet this has bug jets in it.
However.....
I have the old carb this bus came with, and it has bus jets (125, 60z, 57.5) Is it a matter of just unscrewing them and replacing them? I guess I was under the impression that there is an adjustment with the jets. |
There are no "bus jets" or "bug jets", just a setup that the factory used to meet emissions and power requirements. All of the jets make a system that has to work together. A bus with today's fuels and questionable setup would be happier starting off with a richer setup. Knowing what you have in your collection will help us help you.
It really is just a matter of unscrewing them and replacing them! Please have a fire extinguisher handy when working with gas, or in the carb at all. I like to disconnect the battery, as the generator/alternator has an infused battery positive wire on top of it.
The main jet is in the bowl, and accessed by removing a 10mm hex plug (with gasket washer!) I like to have the carb in my hands for this, but I've don't it in the bus. You WILL need to drain the fuel out of the carb for this one, or else removing the plug will drain it for you.
The air jet (usually has a Z suffix) is accessed by removing the 5 screws on top of the carb, and making sure the gasket doesn't rip. Look for a small round jet with a 50-70 or something close, usually followed by the Z. It unscrews straight up and out, and it usually has an emsion tube to stir the mixture that goes through it.
Sounds like you already got the pilot jet.
Let us know what jets you have and what your climate is like, and many here can chime in with thoughts on climate, driving style, elevation, and the like. For example, I run a 127.5 main, a 55 pilot, and either a 60z or 75z air correction. I get 20-25 mpg depending on driving conditions, although I rarely go over 63mph. My head temps are routine and controllable, and my plugs look good.
Robbie
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