Electrify a Bay

[ferball]

Could one hypothetically run a Bus around town on the starter motor? I was thinking some cheap solar panels and fancy wiring i could have a "hybrid",

[Brian]

Sounds like a great way to kill a starter
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Wash your hands

'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper

Only losers litter

[tristessa]

Sounds like an expensive way to kill a starter

[crownline]

If you want electric buy a prius and give the bay to someone who will run it with gas. Or put a wind turbine on the roof.
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1972 Bus 1700 cc Single Carb. But not a progressive.
Barelymuvin
Wish I still had the ones I got rid of.

"It"s got some dings and dents and neither of us is going to SEMA."(Update, I went to SEMA in 2019 but the Bus stayed home)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-8446.png]Click to view image[/URL]

[Skyline]

I had the idea once of gutting a Prius and putting the drive train in a bus to make a true hybrid. When i woke up the next morning, my head hurt and I slipped away from that idea while it was sleeping.

Ahh, youthful indiscretions.

Now I want to restore one more and more.

[aerosurfer]

If there are no underpasses in town, you could mount a mast through the sunroof or westy cutout, and put a giant sail on it.

Then you can tell people you are going sailing in the Bay
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77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)

[telford dorr]

IIRC, the design life of a starter motor is 8 hours (assuming intermittent use).
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[ferball]

The idea of a solar powered car appeals to me, and a bus has the roof real estate to accommodate the solar array to power it. But there is no way I am going to gut my Blue Beast for the novelty of a solar powered car. My thought was that if I could figure out how to use the existing power train with minimal modification it might be a fun project.

The starter would be the obvious choice if it could handle it, but I had my doubts and I figure you all could get a good laugh out of me. My second thought would be to do it with the alternator. Put an old school generator in, and power that with solar and it would turn the engine or modify the flywheel pulley to except another belt and have a stand alone motor on that.This idea seems way more plausible than the the starer.

My other question for the real mechanics is: Is there any danger in turning a motor with no gas running through it? Would that cause some un known problems?

[GMATech]

There is no way you could get enough solar power to run a car. Google solar powered cars, there are engineering schools that do this. They usually end up with a very tiny car that is completely covered in solar panels and has very limited capability.

The starter would never have enough power to actually drive the bus, and as far as the generator. General Motors has a hybrid setup that uses a large generator/starter unit. It provides additional power to the already running engine and recaptures that energy when possible. Plus they shut the engine off and fire it back up when you're about to pull out.

The type of motor you would need to actually run the car is huge. And then you're going to run into some serious speed and range restrictions. There's a guy in the split forum that built one. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=539140
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[raygreenwood]

[telford dorr]

IIRC, solar radiation is around 1 kw / square meter, at best. Assume you get half of that. At 21% panel efficiency and, say, 3 sq meters of roof space, that's 1000 * 0.5 * 0.21 * 3 = 315 watts of power available. Assume 1 kw per horsepower (with motor and control losses), that's 0.315 hp to move the bus (in real-time). Assuming I didn't drop a decimal point somewhere, or other stupid mistakes, you're gonna need substantial storage (battery, super-caps, etc.) to make it work.

[Going the other way: the average house has a 100 amp, 240 volt service. That's 100 x 240 = 24 kw maximum possible power draw. Assume a 2-pole AC generator was run by a VW engine, and you got (with losses) 500 watts / hp. That means you'd need 48 hp to max out your house service - within range of a 60 hp 1600 (turning 3600 rev/min = 60 hz power)... Food for thought.]
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[ferball]

I am aware of the fact that I would not be able run a car straight off of solar, The beauty of a VW bus is its cargo capacity, throwing a giant "battery pack" into one would be the easiest part of the project. I would not expect to go touring on the solar alone, I would only expect it to keep the batteries charged enough that I could go electric in traffic or around town

I know that a used electric fork lift motor is also a cost effective power plant for electric cars. I have done quite a bit of research on this EV idea even if most of my posts make me look like an ignorant fool.

VW Buses are actually one of the best platforms for an EV because it is fairly light weight and you can frieght it out pretty good (batteries can get heavy.

Most of the DIY EV projects I have seen involve pulling out the engine and attaching a motor to the gearbox.

My thought is why pull the engine? Find some point of input for your electric motor. I.E the starter. However I am thinking some sort of fly wheel pulley mod with your electric motor mounted opposite the battery tray would actually almost work.

The biggest problem I see with this concept is the loss of effiecincy in cranking the entire engine, but the efficincy trade off is worth it especially if you are charging with solar.

The only other mod aside from a fancy pulley would be en electric fuel pump, so we could cut fuel flow when in electric mode thus keeping the engine from firing.

I know there is quite a bit more involved, but a bolt on electric upgrade would be quite cool. I know hub motors are always an option, but the implementation would be a lot more involved, and who knows what kind of hacking would need to be done to the suspension to make them fit.

[tristessa]

[Skyline]

[telford dorr]

Don't forget regenerative braking - the big secret to successful hybrids. Recovering substantial energy rather than dumping it as heat makes around-town 'mileage' rise substantially. [Does nothing for 'highway' mileage, unfortunately.That's why most hybrid's 'around town' mileage is better than their 'highway' mileage.] Any electric conversion without this is incomplete.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[raygreenwood]

While not a solar conversion expert, I used to work for the company that makes the most efficient cell in the market and I currently work within and on the fringes of the solar industry in cell production.
So over the years I have a pretty good grasp on how it works, the different types of cells and the different inefficiencies and dynamics.

The average non-industrial consumers like we are seeing here ( and other places) generally have no real idea of what is possible and not possible with solar.

The eco/Green movement with regard to solar are their own (and the solar industry's) worst enemy. You end up with a large group of well meaning and enthusiastic people (like the original poster)....who are talking up and pushing solar....usually with an unrealistic vision at best and totally incorrect physics at worst.

In their minds...if you could just cover every surface with solar cells....fossil fuels should be obsolete...and there will be world peace...and everyone can live in an electric VW bus and smoke free prescription weed!

Solar photovoltaics is an awesome industry with a lot of "specific" power capability....most of it being horribly misused.

Telford Dorr: Actually cumulative solar radiation across the entire spectrum during a maximum length day is about 110 to 130 watts per sq. meter depending upon whose information you see. That is just visible light. There is a lot more UV and infrared that may end up making the difference you posted.

This is also why it pays not to go to wall mart for solar panels. There is a huge difference in both panel efficiency and in inverter technology (losses) among solar panels.
Current cell technology does not make use of the UV or Infrared spectrum. And the current maximum theoretical efficiency of standard silicon solar cells is about 33-35% (only parabolic mirror boosted gallium cells have hit that number....only available for $$$$$ for satellites or military)

And....moving forward in the industry as next generation cells (hopefully) ever make it to mass production (dye-based and quantum dot) have a theoretical max efficiency of about 50-60%.

And...next generation cells ARE sensitive to Infrared and some UV. For the past 1.5 years there has been an in the field department of defense test going on in Afghanistan. The military has been using 5th generation cells for charging batteries for radios for long range patrols (3-5 days). Typically the units use D-cells and they have to carry about 25-30 lbs of them.
The next gen cells.....charge at night from heat (infrared) and during the day from light.
This has allowed using ONE set of batteries on a long range patrol. A big deal.

But the best use of solar has nothing to do with anything automotive. Ray

[Skyline]

[Skyline]

Additionally, just for completeness, if you look at the Tesla comparision (i.e. ~100 mile range). I calculated to properly design an EV conversion to a T2 bus would run right around $42,000 pinching every penny I could. I figured it would be close to $65,000 by the time I worked all the bugs out.

My design case was 65 mph for a 60 mile commute or 120 miles round trip. The battery pack assumed Lith-ion or Lith-poly (can't remember) to keep the weight down but increased cost. The technology to keep that kind of battery pack going reliably was cutting edge two years ago. Overcharging Lithium batteries is bad juju. Main reason I started looking the hybrid route.

All my research was shelved because there were to many issues for not enough return. The better solution was to enjoy the vintageness of the bus and smile alot driving it that way.

[ferball]

You guys are full of some great info even if you make me feel like a dumb a$$ for starting the thread. Lets be clear there is no practical reason to own an electric car. Compare the MPG of a Toyota Yaris with a Prius and the difference is negligible, but once you figure all the additional costs of ownership associated with a Prius you quickly realize it is all about marketing.

Admittedly I have not done the math side of a full EV build, but again the original intent was never to have a state of the art EV that I cooked up in my garage. I would never expect it to go over 30 MPH and it would be used around town.

The electrical engineers have had their fun with me, so now I'll throw one out for the physicists. My understanding that as your speed increases the power required for acceleration increases geometrically, so the reason an EV get better milage around town has more to do with slow speeds than regen breaks. A gas powered engine is more effiecent on the highway because the engine is always producing a certain amount of power whether the car is moving or not, that power curve crosses the acceleration curve to give you your optimum speed which the gas crisis of the 70's would have you believe was around 50mph.

A small electric motor that engages only at less than 30mph does not seem to be some huge impossible engineering problem. Cruising at 50 mph for an hour is a whole different set of parameters and yes efficiency and aerodynamics suddenly become way more important.

But my original intent with this line of thinking and what I was trying to puzzle out was a bolt on "EV" upgrade for in town driving to get me from one red light to the next.

Please continue to mock me, just include decent info. Thanks

[raygreenwood]