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Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Overheating issues Reply with quote

'78 Champagne - FI

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=524348


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Issue:

Bus starts, runs drives fine. After about 15 minutes of driving, it wont restart if I park until it cools down.

New Parts:
The following parts are all new/known good.

Fuel pump, all fuel lines, fuel filter, s boot (solid uncracked used part.) intake runner sleeves (?), both intake manifold gaskets, and every single vaccum line on the motor. All. Even the one to the back of the throttle body. All new. All double and triple checked. Fit snug, no binding, cracks, etc. Other new stuff that probably doesnt matter, points, plugs, rotor, wires, engine seal, air filter, AFM, oil and filter.

What I've done:
Checked timing, its spot on. Checked AFM adjustment, its spot on too. Fiddling with the wiper doesnt make any improvements from where it is now.

What I know:
I dont have a thermostat, and it feels like the arm to the flaps is set in the "second gear" position. Arm does not move.

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Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad points can cause hard starting, but this sonuds worse. Have you tried a spoon full of gas down the intake to see if it's fuel related?

How does it "not start"? Does it crank over? Does it partially catch with occasional coughs? Does they key turn with no clicks, clacks, or clunks?

Robbie
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Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It starts fine initially. It can sit weeks, fires right up. Just wont start again after it gets "hot". Cranks and cranks and cranks. Cools down just a touch and it partially catches, then bursts to life. Ice cold, bursts right off.
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't usually respond to late bus starting issues, but when I do, I recommend checking the TS2.

Laughing

seriously, is it in good order? I didn't see it on your list
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell us about your cables from the battery to the starter and the ground. Then about the chassis ground strap.

Have you tested the residual fuel pressure? Leave the pressure gauge on it to see what is different when it won't re-start.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to know how old the ignition switch is myself Very Happy
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Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
I don't usually respond to late bus starting issues, but when I do, I recommend checking the TS2.

Laughing

seriously, is it in good order? I didn't see it on your list


CRAP. Sorry, its nearly new. I did it less than 6 months ago. Ignition switch is the original I'm sure.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
I don't usually respond to late bus starting issues, but when I do, I recommend checking the TS2.

Laughing

seriously, is it in good order? I didn't see it on your list


CRAP. Sorry, its nearly new. I did it less than 6 months ago. Ignition switch is the original I'm sure.



Nearly new is nice but can mean nothing. Check resistance hot and cold. It is the exact symptom of the base line fuel mix running slightly lean...and then a slightly out of spec TS2 dropping resistance down too low because it banks heat after shutdown. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
Tell us about your cables from the battery to the starter and the ground. Then about the chassis ground strap.

Have you tested the residual fuel pressure? Leave the pressure gauge on it to see what is different when it won't re-start.


Cables to from the battery to the starter? I'm honestly not sure. Replaced the ground strap off the transmission tho. The negative strap does look slightly suspect. I thought about it running lean, but it seems to be right where it wants to be AFM wise.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Useful things for when the stater is turning at the correct speed but the car is not starting...

Stick the dwell meter on the green points wire and see how close you are to 47º +/- 3º. Might want to stick the VOM on the coil to see if you are really getting 12 volts there. While you have the VOM out, stick it on the TSII and see what kind of number you are seeing and report that back.

Just when did you last adjust your valves?

Stick the fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail test port to see how close to 26 psi you are. Is the pump getting 12 volts?

You should be running NGK non-platinum plugs. Are you?

I still see no indication that you are overheating.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valves last set just before spring. I am running NGK non platniums. I got to the "over heating" by if I drive 15-20 minutes, and cut it off, it wont restart. I assumed it had something to do with the engine being at temp. I don't currently have a dwell meter. The last time I checked dwell is last year when Colin came through and we gave it a once over. The pump gets twelve volts at initial start, you think I'm losing it between there and my destination? Ill have to drive and get it to not start again and run those tests.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

air/fuel
spark
compression

Which is missing?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. Thats a good point. Ill drive it and get it warmed up and see. Could the starter be an issue, once the bus is hot?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure the TS2 is in tight, and check the ground cluster under the runner to #3.
I've had the same issue and it was a combo of loose grounds and vacuum leaks.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Could the starter be an issue, once the bus is hot?


Kirk wrote:
…wont start again after it gets "hot". Cranks and cranks and cranks…


You answered your own question; starter works!


Here are simple tests to rule out or include the options that have been suggested.

fuel
Pour a spoonful of gas into the intake plenum, somewhere after the throttle body. If it tries to start better, or runs for a few seconds, you have a fuel delivery problem. Fuel pressure running? After shutdown? During hot and cold cranking?

spark
Use a strobe timing light around any plug wire and have a helper or a remote starter crank the engine over. Does it strobe at an appropriate timing mark? (Could be anywhere from 5*atdc to 20*btdc, just as long as the light flashes.) No light? Try the light pickup on the coil wire. If it works then, something cap/rotor/wire related is at fault. Still no light? Something back up the electronic stream is at fault. Points/condenser/coil/ignition switch?

compression
You could do a compression test, but the fact that it runs cold is good enough. Engines usually seal better once they're warmed up and fully expanded.

TS2
Unplug it and ground the wire when the engine is warm. This fools the ECU into thinking the TS2 is reporting a 100% warmed up engine. It will result in slightly buggy warm-up and cold weather running though, so reconnect it after the test please.

The vacuum leak comment is good as well- a cold engine gets extra fuel from the CSV and cold TS2 report, as well as extra air from the AAR. Once warmed up, the engine is running on a MUCH finer balance of air and fuel. A properly adjust AFM is on the borderline of lean when the engine is warmed up and everything is dialed in, so a vacuum leak would definitely adversely affect warm idle.

Let us know how each of these (free) tests work out!

Robbie
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were me, I would have a good look at the free and easy stuff first.

Electrical connections.
Look for vacuum leaks.
Look for the correct dwell and check timing.
Clean out the inside of the starter.
Confirm the ignition key is working like it should.
Adjust the valves.
Confirm the fuel pressure is correct.


Cross them off as you confirm that they are within the spec.
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