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Kirk Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003 Posts: 5487 Location: North Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: Overheating issues |
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'78 Champagne - FI
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=524348
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Issue:
Bus starts, runs drives fine. After about 15 minutes of driving, it wont restart if I park until it cools down.
New Parts:
The following parts are all new/known good.
Fuel pump, all fuel lines, fuel filter, s boot (solid uncracked used part.) intake runner sleeves (?), both intake manifold gaskets, and every single vaccum line on the motor. All. Even the one to the back of the throttle body. All new. All double and triple checked. Fit snug, no binding, cracks, etc. Other new stuff that probably doesnt matter, points, plugs, rotor, wires, engine seal, air filter, AFM, oil and filter.
What I've done:
Checked timing, its spot on. Checked AFM adjustment, its spot on too. Fiddling with the wiper doesnt make any improvements from where it is now.
What I know:
I dont have a thermostat, and it feels like the arm to the flaps is set in the "second gear" position. Arm does not move.
Thoughts? _________________ MAKE FORUMS GREAT AGAIN
Bear
Coble
Super
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Bad points can cause hard starting, but this sonuds worse. Have you tried a spoon full of gas down the intake to see if it's fuel related?
How does it "not start"? Does it crank over? Does it partially catch with occasional coughs? Does they key turn with no clicks, clacks, or clunks?
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Kirk Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003 Posts: 5487 Location: North Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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It starts fine initially. It can sit weeks, fires right up. Just wont start again after it gets "hot". Cranks and cranks and cranks. Cools down just a touch and it partially catches, then bursts to life. Ice cold, bursts right off. _________________ MAKE FORUMS GREAT AGAIN
Bear
Coble
Super
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I don't usually respond to late bus starting issues, but when I do, I recommend checking the TS2.
seriously, is it in good order? I didn't see it on your list _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Tell us about your cables from the battery to the starter and the ground. Then about the chassis ground strap.
Have you tested the residual fuel pressure? Leave the pressure gauge on it to see what is different when it won't re-start. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to know how old the ignition switch is myself _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Kirk Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003 Posts: 5487 Location: North Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I don't usually respond to late bus starting issues, but when I do, I recommend checking the TS2.
seriously, is it in good order? I didn't see it on your list |
CRAP. Sorry, its nearly new. I did it less than 6 months ago. Ignition switch is the original I'm sure. _________________ MAKE FORUMS GREAT AGAIN
Bear
Coble
Super
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Kirk wrote: |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I don't usually respond to late bus starting issues, but when I do, I recommend checking the TS2.
seriously, is it in good order? I didn't see it on your list |
CRAP. Sorry, its nearly new. I did it less than 6 months ago. Ignition switch is the original I'm sure. |
Nearly new is nice but can mean nothing. Check resistance hot and cold. It is the exact symptom of the base line fuel mix running slightly lean...and then a slightly out of spec TS2 dropping resistance down too low because it banks heat after shutdown. Ray |
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Kirk Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003 Posts: 5487 Location: North Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Randy in Maine wrote: |
Tell us about your cables from the battery to the starter and the ground. Then about the chassis ground strap.
Have you tested the residual fuel pressure? Leave the pressure gauge on it to see what is different when it won't re-start. |
Cables to from the battery to the starter? I'm honestly not sure. Replaced the ground strap off the transmission tho. The negative strap does look slightly suspect. I thought about it running lean, but it seems to be right where it wants to be AFM wise. _________________ MAKE FORUMS GREAT AGAIN
Bear
Coble
Super
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Useful things for when the stater is turning at the correct speed but the car is not starting...
Stick the dwell meter on the green points wire and see how close you are to 47º +/- 3º. Might want to stick the VOM on the coil to see if you are really getting 12 volts there. While you have the VOM out, stick it on the TSII and see what kind of number you are seeing and report that back.
Just when did you last adjust your valves?
Stick the fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail test port to see how close to 26 psi you are. Is the pump getting 12 volts?
You should be running NGK non-platinum plugs. Are you?
I still see no indication that you are overheating. |
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Kirk Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003 Posts: 5487 Location: North Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Valves last set just before spring. I am running NGK non platniums. I got to the "over heating" by if I drive 15-20 minutes, and cut it off, it wont restart. I assumed it had something to do with the engine being at temp. I don't currently have a dwell meter. The last time I checked dwell is last year when Colin came through and we gave it a once over. The pump gets twelve volts at initial start, you think I'm losing it between there and my destination? Ill have to drive and get it to not start again and run those tests. _________________ MAKE FORUMS GREAT AGAIN
Bear
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Super
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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air/fuel
spark
compression
Which is missing? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Kirk Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003 Posts: 5487 Location: North Texas
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Hmm. Thats a good point. Ill drive it and get it warmed up and see. Could the starter be an issue, once the bus is hot? _________________ MAKE FORUMS GREAT AGAIN
Bear
Coble
Super
Oppenheim |
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my59 Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003 Posts: 3781 Location: connecting the dots
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Make sure the TS2 is in tight, and check the ground cluster under the runner to #3.
I've had the same issue and it was a combo of loose grounds and vacuum leaks. _________________ my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Kirk wrote: |
Could the starter be an issue, once the bus is hot? |
Kirk wrote: |
…wont start again after it gets "hot". Cranks and cranks and cranks… |
You answered your own question; starter works!
Here are simple tests to rule out or include the options that have been suggested.
fuel
Pour a spoonful of gas into the intake plenum, somewhere after the throttle body. If it tries to start better, or runs for a few seconds, you have a fuel delivery problem. Fuel pressure running? After shutdown? During hot and cold cranking?
spark
Use a strobe timing light around any plug wire and have a helper or a remote starter crank the engine over. Does it strobe at an appropriate timing mark? (Could be anywhere from 5*atdc to 20*btdc, just as long as the light flashes.) No light? Try the light pickup on the coil wire. If it works then, something cap/rotor/wire related is at fault. Still no light? Something back up the electronic stream is at fault. Points/condenser/coil/ignition switch?
compression
You could do a compression test, but the fact that it runs cold is good enough. Engines usually seal better once they're warmed up and fully expanded.
TS2
Unplug it and ground the wire when the engine is warm. This fools the ECU into thinking the TS2 is reporting a 100% warmed up engine. It will result in slightly buggy warm-up and cold weather running though, so reconnect it after the test please.
The vacuum leak comment is good as well- a cold engine gets extra fuel from the CSV and cold TS2 report, as well as extra air from the AAR. Once warmed up, the engine is running on a MUCH finer balance of air and fuel. A properly adjust AFM is on the borderline of lean when the engine is warmed up and everything is dialed in, so a vacuum leak would definitely adversely affect warm idle.
Let us know how each of these (free) tests work out!
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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If it were me, I would have a good look at the free and easy stuff first.
Electrical connections.
Look for vacuum leaks.
Look for the correct dwell and check timing.
Clean out the inside of the starter.
Confirm the ignition key is working like it should.
Adjust the valves.
Confirm the fuel pressure is correct.
Cross them off as you confirm that they are within the spec. |
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