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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16886
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject: possible collapsed piston question |
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well, just when I thought things were going ok....
the build in question is here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520536
I built a 1904 for my 71 westy. it probably has about 4K on the build, and have not had any real issues other than shimming the rocker shafts (which, by the way, is getting old)
so, at the end of my thread, you can see I was having oil burning issues. I was not at all happy with the deves rings, the way they fit, the way they went together etc....but used them anyway.
I have been having an oil consumption issue from day 1. I will use about 1 quart every 200 or so miles. not good...
knowing this, I monitor my oil pressure gauge and at the first sign of a wiggle, I stop check the oil and top up (usually down about 1/2 quart plus a spit)
that said, I just did a 200+ mile trip this past weekend. got home, parked the bus and have not moved it till today to put it in the garage.
when I went to start it, it sounded like it had no compression in 1 cylinder, followed by a rhythmic rattle (so think broken timing belt sound, but with a clunk)
started, ran a but rough for a second and the clunk went away, and seemed to run like normal (I am going to guess because the piston swelled back up)
sadly, I can't say that oil pressure took the knock away as I was not looking at the gauge, but can say it has always built pressure fast.
so, the million dollar question is:
would a collapsed piston make this kind of noise? honestly, it sounded to me like it may have been clunking around in the cylinder.
I had plans to buy a new set of 90.5's anyway and do it over the winter.
any thoughts?
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raul arrese
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1330
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| If you were not happy from the beginning with the rings you should have gone with your gut feeling , it ran fine for the 200 mile trip and now it knocked ?? did it give you any type of sign on the trip ?? so have you turned it off and on since ?? put a pressure guage on it and check exact oil pressure , and check for metal in the screen ??? you need to do some checking .. compression test ? |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16886
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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thanks. I know what I need to do and check, I just was wondering if it was a sign of a possible bad piston.
of the hundred or so engines I have built, I am glad that this was my personal engine and not a customers.
did you even read the thread I linked?
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:52 am Post subject: |
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If you shut it down while very hot and then don't come back for a few days then all the oil can drain out of the bearings and cylinders. And all that will be in the carbs is cooked leftover gas. Will be clunky for 3-5 seconds, but then should be back to normal. Depends on the oil IMO. When I ran cheap oil(motorcraft on saleLOL) it would do that a lot but now using VR-1 it never seems to do that anymore.
A collapsed piston bad enough to be a problem may rattle until the pistons and oil get up to temp, which takes a lot longer, minutes not seconds.
When you do tear it down if the pistons are ok then I think you should have them honed and put in some Grant rings. Cast rings in nicely honed "seasoned" cylinders will seal better than new  |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| A compression test will tell if what you suspect is correct. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16886
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
| If you shut it down while very hot and then don't come back for a few days then all the oil can drain out of the bearings and cylinders. And all that will be in the carbs is cooked leftover gas. Will be clunky for 3-5 seconds, but then should be back to normal. Depends on the oil IMO. When I ran cheap oil(motorcraft on saleLOL) it would do that a lot but now using VR-1 it never seems to do that anymore. |
Modok~
Very interesting. I am using joe gibbs HR 10w30.
I was on the highway for about 3 hours, then 15 minutes on local roads till I got home. It then sat at an idle for about 3 minutes. Then sat for 2 days.
Either way, I am pulling it apart and using new pistons and cylinders. The oil consumption is out of hand.
I was going to get some mahle p/c's. Are the supplied rings ok, or should I get another set?
Modok, you were pretty vocal in my thread (and others) about the use of the deves. The multi piece oil ring was a pain in the ass, and was super tight in the bore when on the piston.
I am just not going to run the risk of re-re using them. Not in the mood to play...
Other than a good wash on the new p/c's, should I look into any other finishing?
Will get them balanced as the whole shebang got balanced the first time around.
Edit:
Should I go brazil p/c's for 325.00 or AA's? Not a problem spending money on quality parts, just not a fan of china....
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16886
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to sound like a dick, but it isn't worth my time to ship them out. The cost to ship them back and forth plus the risk of damage isn't worth it to me.
I know, some would go and ship them out, but for once in my life I have more money than time. The older I get, the more valuable my time gets.
I have zero issues buying new, and I regret not doing it to start with.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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I understand your feelings, I'm not a spring chicken either. The weekends aren't long enough, and I only get half as much accomplished in a day that I used to.
When you pull it down, Make sure that you check the rod bearings on both ends. I have seen the little end bearings come loose or spin in the rods after a very short time. This may account for your noise, but the running issue may have been caused by a partially fouled plug. No matter what brand P&Cs you go with, see if your local machine shop has the holding fixture and correct hone to do a precision hone. It makes a world of difference in both ring seating and longevity. You can't believe how out of round some new cylinders are. As Modok said, I have also had good luck with Grant rings, along with total seals.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51156
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| No matter what brand P&Cs you go with, see if your local machine shop has the holding fixture and correct hone to do a precision hone. It makes a world of difference in both ring seating and longevity. |
Excellent point, but I'd look at doing it to the old ones as you already have pre seasoned cylinders, if they were going to do any warping or other wierd stuff when run they've already gotten it out of thier system, made in China or not the quality of the metal used anywhere just isn't the same anymore.
Of course if you don't have a real machine shop locally then just use the new stuff out of the box, but I find an hour or two of a machinist who knows what he's doing and gives a damn's time can make the old parts even better than new ones.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16886
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I hear you busdaddy...
my first thought was sell the dellorto's and go for another Subaru swap 
but, I am too far in with this engine. I don't feel that I got my 5k worth out of it.
my local guy (who is fantastic) didn't have the correct size jig to do a good hone.
we just did the old bottle brush deal as I remember him saying they were ahem, 'useable'
he pretty much said it is more than likely a ring issue. he had seen the video from the first stages of the break in. he pretty much said run it for a few thousand and see what happens. even then, he was saying the rings never seated.
again, I used joe gibbs BR30 break in oil. I don't think it is the fault of the oil.
shame on me for not pulling the plug when I was putting the rings together. I know better. i guess when you had 3 or 4 people p/m you saying to ditch the deves, it's a sign 
seeing that I never really ran the bus for more than an hour, hour and a half I never realized how severe the oil consumption was. a good long 3.5 hour jog down 95 brought the issue front and center for sure.
just started it up. sounded fine. i think modok nailed it. seeing the oil was probably a bit low, i bet it farted out an air pocket at start up. with the external cooler, lines and filter, i am sure it didn't help the situation at all.
i will do a compression test for ha ha's but i am going to bet 1 cylinder didn't seal correctly. will post results soon
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| probably a good idea to split it befor it split on it's own. not colasped piston. it will be cheeper to fix it before it fixes your wallet/bank account.Ive never had a problem with total seal rings.I have no reason to use any other ring(execpt for my new mahles take a .030"wide ring,so ill stay with them. |
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Brian71
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2005
Posts: 183
Location: Prineville, OR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| When you installed your pistons into your cylinders, did you pay close attention to the oil ring split orientation in relation to the cylinder, one another, and the expander? |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16886
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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i really have no reason to split the case. unless of course i see something ugly.
i just did a Subaru swap in my 70 deluxe. call it jumping ship, call it being stupid, but when i can build a 200+horse engine for less than a 110-115 hp aircooled, it was a no brainer.
600 for a set of heads
300 for rods
200+ for a crank
300 for a balance job
1,200 for carbs
that right there is 2400...and not even close when you figure in all the full flow stuff, etc etc....plus the hours of labor....
i say let the fucker explode. it will be doing me a favor in a twisted kind of way....
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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As I said my own experience was they sealed incredibly well but wore out quick, and that was in seasoned cylinders honed with sunnen j-63 stones. Twice actually. The second time the engine was sold at 5k miles or so, so I don't know how long they lasted.
I thought maybe a hone job with deeper crosshatch would prolong life but instead they die right away? 
sorry bout that.
The mahle aircooled cylinders are very hard compared to most classic engines. Most likely the deves rings aren't compatible with them. I'd appreciate if you check those rings on the way out and see how much they have worn.
When I found mine were worn out I honed the cylinders same way again and used grant rings. that was four or five years ago. Still working just fine as of ten minutes ago. I even run grant cast rings in the turbo buggy.
I guess we should have John C update his descriptions.
You can buy new if you want but if the pistons still measure good then they are good. Pistons are easy. Rings can be a mystery sometimes. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16886
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Brian71 wrote: |
| When you installed your pistons into your cylinders, did you pay close attention to the oil ring split orientation in relation to the cylinder, one another, and the expander? |
Yes. I was very careful with the install
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7395
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| I had good experience using Grant rings for the top two and using the three piece oil control ring from the Cima kit. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Everyone has good things to say about the Grant rings, but I personally have never tried them. I have a set of NOS cast iron ATE/TRW rings from the 70's that will be going on my current build with good used Mahle pistons in original honed cylinders.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The rings C B performance sells work well. They seat fast and seal well. |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Skills,
I know you probably have gotten a headache from people telling you to hone your old cylinders, but if your machinist doesn't have the proper holding fixture, then trying to hone your old cylinders could be a waste of time. So if you decide to go new (which I suspect), for the best seating and longevity, purchase the rings separately. Like I said before, most rings that come in the P&C sets are junk. Decide which brand of rings to go with and get it back on the road. With a good quality ring set, you should get around 100k out of the engine (driving style dependent) before you have to do it again.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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