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westy81vancouver Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2011 Posts: 73 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:24 pm Post subject: Clutch won't disengage |
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Hey folks, back for some more advice. I can no longer get my van in to gear. A few days ago the van started getting difficult to shift while driving, but with a little force it would shift ok. The next morning I drove the van to the store. Same shifting issues. When I got back in to the van to leave the store I could no longer get it in gear with the van running. It'll shift fine with the van off. I got a tow home. I checked the master and slave clutch cylinders. They were both dry, and the brake fuild was at the max level. I refilled the brake fuild to the very top of the cap and bled the slave clutch cylinder until the brake fluid was just below the max level. I still can't get it in gear. If I try turning on the van with it in gear it'll just lurtch forward and stall.
I should mention too that about a year ago for a few days I had some troubles shifting as well (but I could still get it in gear) and the problem just seemed to correct itself.
Can the master/slave clutch cylinders still be diffective without leaking? What should I be looking for? I don't when they were replaced last. I'm hoping the problem is fixable without dropping the engine, but I feel foolish buying parts without knowing the problem first.
Thanks! _________________ 81 Westy |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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So far as I know, a master cylinder can fail w/o leaking but a slave cylinder will leak if it fails.
That said - if this is your problem then best practice is to replace both at the same time. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'd recommend crawling underneath and having an assistant work the clutch pedal. Watch the lever at the bellhousing to be sure you get some movement. If so, it is possible the pilot bearing has failed, a piece of clutch disc has come off and jammed the disc, or one of the forks that supports the throwout bearing has failed and not depressing pressure plate equally. In those cases the transmission would need to come out.
It would also be worth bleeding the clutch slave cylinder to be sure there is no air in the system. _________________ ☮️ |
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KaitlynMcC Samba Member
Joined: August 26, 2014 Posts: 1 Location: Los Osos, CA
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Inside the bellhousing are 2 arms that push the clutch.
It happens that one of them brake.
On any gearbox i have under my hands i weld this arms extra.
Edit:
Get another person pushing the pedal and look if the arm on the gearbox moves.
Look also at the holder of the hydraulic zylinder on the gearbox if he is moving. |
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7733 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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rsxsr wrote: |
I'd recommend crawling underneath and having an assistant work the clutch pedal. Watch the lever at the bellhousing to be sure you get some movement. If so, it is possible the pilot bearing has failed, a piece of clutch disc has come off and jammed the disc, or one of the forks that supports the throwout bearing has failed and not depressing pressure plate equally. In those cases the transmission would need to come out... |
Truth. Unless you have unusual noises with the engine running, my vote
is for fragged clutch or forks. You gotta get in there & see what's what... _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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1vw4x4 Banned
Joined: June 22, 2005 Posts: 472 Location: Pgh. PA
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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If the problem is not the hydraulics, just start taking the transaxle out.
Its only 1.5 job, if you don't have any hiccups.
No matter what the problem this will have to be your next step.
Now..... I've fixed maybe a hundred clutch problems in vanagon. One of the
most over looked issues is the pilot bearing. This can cause your symptoms.
No matter what do the entire clutch right. Everything in there requires
removing the transaxle. |
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westy81vancouver Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2011 Posts: 73 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies folks. Well here we go again. I managed to sneak in a few hours in today to drop the engine. Getting better at it each time. :-p Thanks to Ben's place for the refresher (http://www.benplace.com/air_cool_vanagon.htm)! It started getting dark once I got it out, so I didn't have much of a chance to inspect things or take good pictures. I did notice a small gash and sharp edge on the face of the pressure plate though. Some small metal shavings as well. I also got someone to pump the clutch a few times while I watched at the back. There was no movement at first and then the clutch release bearing moved forward and stayed there and now the clutch pedal is stiff and doesn't appear to want to move.
I'll remove the pressure plate and clutch tomorrow after work and take some pictures. Anything else I should be looking for?
Cheers
_________________ 81 Westy |
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westy81vancouver Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2011 Posts: 73 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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So it was indeed the pilot bearing. That $7 part can sure cause some problems.
I'm afraid to suggest this, but should I just replace it and be done with it? I know that would be too good to be true. The clutch only has about 4,000 kms on it, so it should still be good unless some bits from the pilot bearing scared it up. Unfortunately I'm not exactly sure what to look for. I'm not sure if the pressure plate was replaced when the clutch was done last.
This is how the rest of it is looking.
_________________ 81 Westy |
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1vw4x4 Banned
Joined: June 22, 2005 Posts: 472 Location: Pgh. PA
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Bingo.... Do I get the prize?
Clutch looks good, and so does the pressure plate, but you have to make sure the surfaces are fairly smooth. Same with the flywheel.
Now your real problem is the input shaft, on the transaxle. Chances are its ripped up, from the bad pilot bearing. It has to be smooth and
polished. Otherwise it needs replaced. |
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rubbachicken Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004 Posts: 3058 Location: socal
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:37 am Post subject: |
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it's amazing how many people forget to grease the pilot bearing
unless it's REAL bad you should be able to polish the end of the input shaft with wet and dry paper, if it's a gonner you have a clutch aligning tool _________________ lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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westy81vancouver Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2011 Posts: 73 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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@1vw4x4 I'm afraid all I can afford is a big thank you!
The input shaft looks good to me. What do you guys think?
What do you guys think about the clutch release bearing? Would that be worth replacing?
The one thing I noticed was a bit of a ding on the front side of the pressure plate, but I'm not sure if that would have an effect on anything else.
Lastly, can I clean the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel with some break cleaner to remove some of the metal dust from the pilot bearing?
Thanks! _________________ 81 Westy |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Input shaft looks galled to me. I'd see how it cleans up with some emory cloth. It should look like the section after where it is galled before the splines. Nice and smooth. _________________ ☮️ |
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1vw4x4 Banned
Joined: June 22, 2005 Posts: 472 Location: Pgh. PA
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks is fine..... Your going to need the prize money for a new input shaft. Long term the shaft will just chew up the bearing.
westy81vancouver wrote: |
@1vw4x4 I'm afraid all I can afford is a big thank you!
The one thing I noticed was a bit of a ding on the front side of the pressure plate, but I'm not sure if that would have an effect on anything else.
Lastly, can I clean the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel with some break cleaner to remove some of the metal dust from the pilot bearing?
Thanks! |
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Dampcamper Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013 Posts: 788 Location: Rainy Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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1vw4x4 wrote: |
Thanks is fine..... Your going to need the prize money for a new input shaft. Long term the shaft will just chew up the bearing.
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Do you think a machine shop could polish that back up? What is the radial dimension tolerance between shaft and bearing? |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:42 am Post subject: |
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A lot of people, most it seems, run with input shafts that look no better than yours. New shafts are available at present from what I have heard and run several hundred dollars if you have the bucks, but if not you could just get some fine emory cloth and polish up what you have. The pilot bearing are horribly undersized on these engines and need to be replaced pretty much whenever you have access. You can also run the diesel style bearing which includes a rubber lip type seal, which is better at keeping the grease and dust separated than the plain bearing with the felt seal. The bore in the flywheel needs to be relieved a bit for the longer bearing to fit.
Another alternative is the have the bore in the flywheel machined so that the bearing can be fitting into the flywheel. This way the bearing will run on an undamaged area of the shaft. You would want to use the Diesel bearing with the integral seal if you do this and I believe you need to drive the bearing in until it is flush.
left: bearing with integral seal
middle: stock bearing
right: pilot bushing |
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1vw4x4 Banned
Joined: June 22, 2005 Posts: 472 Location: Pgh. PA
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Another thing I've noticed is the fork for the throwout bearing looks
bad. Hard to tell from pictures, but the area that engages the the bearing
should be a half round. the right side in the picture does not look good.
I've run into this many times where the clutch was just replaced but several
of these other items where over looked. These mechanics are everywhere!
[quote="westy81vancouver"]@1vw4x4 I'm afraid all I can afford is a big thank you!
The input shaft looks good to me. What do you guys think?
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westy81vancouver Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2011 Posts: 73 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Just wanted to post an update. I got a mechanic friend of mine on board to help me out. We were able to get the input shaft looking pretty good. My friend cut the flywheel for me, and we installed a new luk clutch kit (clutch, release bearing, pilot bearing, pressure plate) and also replaced all the seals including the main shaft oil seal behind the release bearing (it looked like it had been leaking a bit).
It's been driving and shifting nice and smooth for a few weeks now. Hopefully all is well for a good little while.
_________________ 81 Westy |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Did you install the felt ring or use the diesel pilot bearing and machine the bore of the flywheel? You say you had a friend 'cut the flywheel'. Do you mean that they turned the friction surface or that they clearanced it for the diesel PB? |
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westy81vancouver Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2011 Posts: 73 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'm using the standard pilot bearing with the felt ring installed. Yes just turned the friction surface on the flywheel (you can see the before pic earlier in the thread). _________________ 81 Westy |
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