Propex or gasoline heater Webasto / Espar

[vanis13]

***
Update 1-15-15

seems like if you are going to use it above 7,000 ft, you want an Espar with an alt sensor.

I ended up with a Espar B4 and like it very much.

much good info in this topic, thanks to all those that contributed
***

Original post -

Taking initial purchase cost out of it - Propex or Gas heater Webasto / Espar?

I like the idea of running off gasoline rather than propane since I have a gas gauge and I can fill up gasoline at any station.

I'm planning on substituting ski area hotel costs by Westy camping so cold temperatures expected.

Wondering about -

heat output

noise

electrical consumption

maintenance

reliability

running costs (or gallon/hr usage) since propane refills can be quite costly for the small Westy tank.

side question - I was considering a air heater however a coolant heater is available too which would require running the Westy fans - thoughts?


Thanks!
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace

www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make

[davevickery]

I would vote for the newer gas heaters. I had a 30 year old eberspacher BN4 and it put out a lot of heat. It got hot instantly and the fan is very strong to reach into all areas of the van. Using gasoline was great, just old technogoly and used too much battery power to run it for long. If you go propane you have to figure out an auxillary tank setup. Filling up with ice crusted all over your tank and having to do it every weekend sucks. I put a quick release port in my city water hookup and could put a 5 gallon BBQ tank on there. Swapping those out is easier and you get almost twice the propane for a better price.

If I went propane again, I think I would get another Atwood Hydroflame 8012. Very simple design, fits in the cabinet next to the fridge with some carpentry skills. Puts out a lot of heat and costs around $450 shipped at various places. It uses a fair amount more propane than a propex and takes up more space.

But for my new van I'm going with a Webasto EVO 3900. Latest models are high tech and ultra efficient. The Webasto 2K isn't too expensive, but is still 50% than the propex. Support might be hard to find too. There are lots of semi truck places to service the diesels, but not sure about the gas versions. Parts and service would be spendy too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WEBASTO-AIR-TOP-2000-S...1214486217

http://sales.butlertechnik.com/webasto/webasto-ins...4?___SID=U


I have this one, but not installed yet.

http://sales.butlertechnik.com/webasto/webasto-ins...t-4111653a

[Jon_slider]

I had a Syncro Westy from Canada with a Coolant heater. I do not recommend it for Ski Camping because. Its primary goal is to preheat the coolant before starting the motor. Even though it has a timer, it is advised not to run more than two 20 minute cycles, to avoid draining the battery from running the fans. The comfort heat output is marginal.

I then got a Propex. I used it as heat when camping at Ski Areas including Taos and Santa Fe and Squaw. It worked very well, with the only downside being that it was very loud. I could not sleep with it on, but in any case, to save propane, I would turn it off once I got into bed, and would turn it back on in the morning. Excellent heat output.

I now have a Diesel Van, with a Diesel Espar heater. I LOVE not having to ration my propane. The heat output is fantastic, and it is quieter than my Propex was. It also has a thermostat, so it can be left on all night, and it will cycle up and down as needed, to maintain temperature.

The Espar has a multi speed fan circuit, so most of the time it is running in whisper mode, with nice warm air flowing out the vent at very low speed, and essentially silent.

I dont know if the current Propex models also have multi fan speeds and thermostats. The Propex I had had a thermostat that would either turn the furnace off completely, or turn it back on in hair dryer mode, meaning loud high speed fan. How loud, well, sitting in the front seat, the propex was louder than my rear heater on position 2. Sleeping on top of the heater would wake me up when it kicked on. I do not have that problem with the Espar.

Given the choice between a furnace that runs on the same fuel as the vehicle, vs on a separate fuel source, such as propane, I heartily recommend same fuel. So if your Van is Gasoline fueled, I would look for a Gasoline version of the Espar. They come up on ebay for half of what they cost new.

Reliability
I had a LOT of problems getting my Propex to run reliably, including multiple trips to be serviced, and to have internal parts upgraded.

The Espar, although used, worked consistently except, one time camping at Kirkwood, after the 1st night, the heater would not come on for the next 2 nights. I got through by hugging a Nalgene bottle of Hot Water.

Turns out the Espar will start now, only if I run the motor, which is kind of not the point, and I do have a separate house battery, as I also did with the Propex.

Moral of the story, whatever furnace you get, may take some trials to get working properly. Highest likelyhood of success is a new Propex. or a New Espar. Running a used Espar is a Gamble, as I have learned.

Good luck in your ski camping adventures.
_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[SCP_Austin]

I have a gas heater I am trying this winter. I run nothing on propane...except a camp stove so adding a complete propane system is a no go for me. I will post a use report. The guy I got it from said it was great! We will see...

I also have an extra gas heater I might toy with for neck testing.
_________________
#leftlanelife

[westyventures]

Let's try to keep comments relative to current models.
The current HS2211 and HS2000 Propex are very quiet at 55 and 60 dBa respectively, measured with an accurate decibel meter at approx. one foot distance. Mounted in a vehicle these levels will be even lower. The Espar and Webasto heaters create a rumble not unlike a small jet engine and require an optional muffler kit if one wants anything resembling quiet.
There are no known reliability issues on the current Propex models.

I've currently use Espar diesel furnaces in my diesel vans, primarily because I dislike carrying large amounts of propane when I already have a larger amount of fuel in the diesel tank. (I've even started cooking with alcohol, which totally does away with propane needs) The Espar and Webasto diesel and gas furnaces have their drawbacks and pluses. The main drawback is their need for yearly cleaning and maintenance if used a lot. The heat output is more even as they do have stepped heat levels which the Propex does not. They also don't do so well at altitude, even with the optional altitude kit they will carbon up and need yearly cleaning. Propex needs no maintenance and works well at altitude, 10-11,000 feet have been proven. The previously mentioned Atwood units are not only huge in size relative to their output (9000btu, fwiw less than a Propex HS2800), but also the most inefficient of all being discussed here. $/btu, they win out, but like any appliance the better built and most efficient cost more.

[davevickery]

Don't expect to find a used late model gasoline heater. There are some on Ebay Europe sites but most people won't ship them here. The diesel units are plentiful here but not gas. Besides as Slider said you are taking a chance on a used one. These are expensive to get the missing parts or to troubleshoot problems. Don't put yourself through that. But if you insist, I have an untested HL18 Benzine heater with no fuel pump or hoses for $150.

Also note that Eberspacher/Espar does not make a 2K version anymore in gasoline, only in diesel. They still make the gas 4K model but that gets expensive. Webasto make both 2K KW and 4K KW (6500 and 13K BTU) versions. 2K is like the propex 2000 and 4K is a more powerful than the big propex. The 2K is nice because it is smaller. I'm thinking of selling my 4K version and buying a 2K for that reason, but I love being able to turn the heater on in the morning and have the van hot within 10 minutes. If I went propex I would get the 10K BTU version for that same reason.

[SCP_Austin]

So this thread is now a classified ad?

Gas is a great way to go, but it comes with some headaches as mentioned. However--you have one fuel source and plenty of it. What is that worth to you?
_________________
#leftlanelife

[singler3360]

[Hodakaguy]

We have a HS2800 Propex mounted in our Syncro and use it quite often. So far I couldn't be happier with the Propex unit, I set the thermostat and it runs on/off as needed all night long. I've found the unit to be very frugal on propane and will run for quite a few outings before needing to fill the tank again. I read a lot of posts talking about the noise of the propex before we purchased ours, The noise doesn't bother us at all and I find it to be very quiet...what noise it does put out is the sound of warmth

I ended up mounting the unit under the fridge (Truck fridge conversion), this saves space and left all my storage available under the rear bench.

We haven't had a single issue with ours so far...I'd go the same route again without reservation.

Hodakaguy
_________________
My Syncro Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=517384

My Unimog Build: https://advrider.com/f/threads/meet-the-trotn-turtle-unimog-u1300l-build.1143869/

My Tacoma Builds: https://advrider.com/f/threads/hodakaguys-overland-tacoma-builds-on-to-new-adventures.1274770/

My 4wd Sprinter Build here:https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9334401#9334401

[hans j]

I bought a used espar diesel furnace. Haven't installed it yet so can't comment on reliability but I'm excited for it. I've camped in the cold without a furnace so if it doesn't start here and there it won't be the end of the world.
_________________
1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181

[davevickery]

[vanis13]

[Tobias Duncan]

Do not fill your tank at minimum fee places.
Even in taos I have several options to fill up at normal prices.
My last one cost 7 dollars.

[vanis13]

[photogdave]

[Viva.Sabata]

[Gruppe B]

With propane I never know how much is left in the tank. That would not give me happy thoughts winter camping with a Propex.

I run a Espar D2

[westyventures]

"noisy, fan is only one speed so it heats up, shuts off several times at night, limited fuel supply leads to tendency to conserve fuel. Seems to use quite a bit of fuel (1/2 to 1 gallon per night), Manchester valve makes it a real pain to fill the tank"
I've given actual scientific measurements. 'Noisy' is a matter of personal opinion. No forced-air heater that burn fuel is totally quiet. The HS2211 and HS2000 consume 142 grams of propane per running hour, the HS2800 225 grams. There are 1928 grams in a gallon. 2.5 to 3.0 gallons in a Westy tank, full. The valve is industry std. and used on many tanks. There should be zero issues if a trained and qualified individual is doing the filling.

"With propane I never know how much is left in the tank"
So, add a gauge? Even easier, a splash of hot water on the tank will reveal the level.

I'll do sound level testing on my Espar D2 tomorrow, so you can all have comparison numbers.

[westyventures]

[Jon_slider]