Cleaning an electric AAR

[KTPhil]

All I can think of is maybe the fuel is boiling in the line somewhere and increasing your pressure from heat soak. Never heard of that, though.

[Tram]

[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

I checked the pressure after 3 1/2 hours sitting and it was 18 PSI . I didn't have the gauge in the engine compartment I had the lid off and the gauge was just above the opening yet it's still pretty hot in my garage and with the engine running it's at least 120 or more with the lid off . It's hot in there even without the engine running.

I don't recall how hot it was last time I checked the pressure. All I know is with the same gauge. I have no idea what's inside the gauge most likely it works like most water pressure gauges work. The only diff is you can adjust it to zero if it's off which it was not. There is no stop pin for the needle at zero.

Other than that I'll see what happens , if the pressure is down to nothing in the morning I'll just block clamp the pressure line where it enters on the left on the engine and see if it holds then the return before the regulator.

One opinion is if the pressure holds then it's hot fuel vapors yet I never ran across this all these decades even if one or two or more FI components which I'm sure have aged and are out of the acceptable range , it could be that since 2006 I have not put more than 350 miles per year on this car and either parts aged or gunked up by sitting impossible to say. I do know in 2006 it ran perfectly well at all speeds and idled smooth without missing a beat. It was after 2009 when i replaced the fuel lines and plugs and fuel filter and put back on the heat exchangers and changed the vacuum lines and adjusted the valves then it started to have this erratic idle which is not one cylinder all that corrects it is unplugging the IAD temp sensor yet when I do the hot idle is different in park every time I drive it yet it always drops back to 900 or normal in drive and I don't feel it trying to creep when I let my foot off the gas. With that sensor plugged in the idle can be set and it drops only 100 RPM when placed into drive. Also back in 2009 I replaced all the injector seals with the same VW original ones that were new an available at that time didn't change a thing. The very first thing that developed after said repairs was it began to hunt and I checked every thing all over again and sometimes when I drove it a mile to a store and start it it would stall then start up and over come this if I just placed it in drive and gave it a bit more gas and then it kept running and all of a sudden both issues vanished like a potent fart in the wind now I'm left with this . It's not bad , you don't feel it driving the car at any speed all I notice is the RPM is not real steady if I focus on the tach but put it in park and try to give it gas and it will go to say 1300 RPM then best I can explain it is struggle to get to 200 RPM it gets there yet in not smooth instant responce with the IAD temp sensor unplugged it just responds smooth. Most of my questions were in 2009 or at least what happened at that time and I even checked every single wire from each FI component to the ECU plug for opens ,, short to ground , high/ low resistance and voltage drops nothing. later in 2015 I changed the plug wire and cap and rotor checked the dist advance for any sticking stall acted the same. The parts were old so I felt they were due. was it a fluke or some hose I changed that has some magical vacuum leak / I went through it all again in 2011 and 12 and just lived with it as I do today. Could be the TPS yet I cannot find a thing wrong with it by testing can't test it running other than to hear the 20 clicks engine off of course. I also tightened every single FI terminal connectors out of their lofty nylon plugs and not one change. Went over the valve adjustment three times since then with no change. Who knows it could be any vibration that some wire or connection is not right yet I'm not about to change the entire wire harness and replace every FI one at a time as in tossing parts at it . I certainly triple checked all my work first time around in 2009 and did not handle any plug or connector rough. Thing is a vacuum leak will make it run richer which is what unplugging that temp sensor does not in quite the same manner . It's most likely one simple little thing that changed when I did the basic maintaining one should do other than the heat exchangers in place of the J pipes . I didn't even have to fill the tank so it changed with the same gasoline.

[raygreenwood]

Ok....good stuff.

A couple of items.

1. One BIG problem with these cars any car.....is not driving them. 350 miles in 11 years.....you will easily have lots of little vacuum leaks that open and close with temperature and vibration.
Hands down the most difficult troubleshooting sessions I have ever had....with not only D-jet....but L-jet, digifant and CIS injected cars.....is from otherwise perfectly running cars that were stored for long periods and not DRIVEN.....not just occasionally warmed up.....or driven sparsely.

Gaskets seperate, seals shrink etc. In these type of vehicle.....I have learned not to play around. I replace every hose, every filter, every gasket and seal that might come on contact with vacuum before I do anything with cars that get stored and not driven

You can see this carnival of insanity every spring over in the Bay bus forum. .....many owners tune out their rides and park them rust free in the garage for the winter....and do nothing with them for 6 months.
Then we get weeks of posts of "parked for the winter pristine.....now wont idle or does not run right".

These little idle issues you described above.....sound just like tiny intake gasket to head leaks, runner boot leaks, plenum back plate leaks.....and yes.....injector seal leaks......all tiny leaks. Some you will have at cold start up. Those disappear in minutes as things heat up. Other different tiny leaks will open up with heat expansion and vibration.

2. From the sound of it.....your regulator and pump are pretty good. Normal enough.

3. The problem you described after changing injector seals is PRECISELY why I quit using the factory seals over 20 years ago.
The material on factory seals is just fine. Its Viton. The problem is that factory supplied seals are just slices.....precise slices....but just slices of tube. The ID is too large and at times the OD is slightly too small. They have variation.
The best factory style/shaped seals I have found are the Echlin brand seal kit found at NAPA. They are molded and have a bulge at each end. They are longer by a handful of thousandths.....and most important....the grommet that fits in the hasp/ring and holds the injector.....is slightly oversized.....so it forces the injector inward tighter.....to compress the tip seal so it seals tighter.

The problem even with the Echlin brand seal is that the ID is still too large so the injector cab rattle around a little with vibration.....and cause leaks at the tip seals.

The best combination I have found is to use the Echlin brand hold down grommets cor D-jet and tip seals from CIS injectors. Those fit very tight to the injector tip....and since they are not shaped for the step bore in the end of the runner.....they get compacted hard....conform to the bore....keep the injector vibration free and perfectly centered and sealed.

4. From what you have described.....your AAR is functioning. If it flows air when cold...and closes up vacuum tight after 8 minutes plus or minus......it has nothing to do with what is wrong with your car.

5. Every symptom you describe is also right in line with what you get out of an old harness. That fact that you tightened up terminals years or months ago ....means nothing because then you drove it hardly at all.

Ray

[blues90]

Ray that's all true except I said I drive it 350 miles per year not in 11 years . Although most of the driving is twice a week to 3 times a week and at most 4 miles each time. I did drive it much more in 2006 every day on the freeways then by early 2007 I was down to 300 to 400 miles per year.

Yet it still ran fine until I did all the work in 2009 it was after that the odd idle issues arose. Another thing was the MPS which was new on a spare 72 I got in 85 for spare parts the one on my car which was screwed together was the proper VW part number for an E system ( which I only found out in 2009 when I joined this forum looking for info and Russ had a chart . Since the one on the 72 looked new and was riveted I put that one on my car and it's number was not the same VW # yet it looked identical and not knowing I just put it on and it ran fine with it then I was offered the proper VW and Bosch number an unused one which I put on in early 2015 or 16 can't recall . Back when I swapped out the MPS it was 1991 and i had no info and didn't have a PC until 2000. Point is all three look the same and have the black cap and the one adjustment screw. All have the ground tab on the housing and my car has that ground wire. Yet the car ran very well and still did even with the wrong MPS by number until 2009 when I had just changed all the fuel and vacuum lines and everything else I described. Right after that is when it began running with the funky idle. In 2009 I joined this forum it started out as a heat exchanger debate whether or not I needed them so I was convince I did and put them back on then went on to do all the other lines and hoses , at that time is when it developed this erratic miss and the last thing I did was replace the injector seals which fit well and compressed I was waiting for them to arrive hoping that they would fix this since they were to only item I didn't replace. I haven't replaced the runner short hoses since 97 when I rebuilt the engine or the intake thick FI gaskets . I didn't disturb those in 2009 and in the past when I replaced them never found them cracked and the paper gaskets were still in tact. It's quite possible through heat cycles and expansion and contraction they now have small leaks . I can find the runner hoses and all I see for intakes are the ones later FI air cooled bugs used which whatever supplier it was said they fit and work. Some here just use the old thick spacer and fit new thin paper gaskets.

It does seem like I have some sort of small vacuum leak. Finding it will be the difficult part.

[Mike Fisher]

I've always had to prime my fuel pump when it's cold. Starts good warmed up down town/highway etc. I broke my $15? primer button from Jim Adney. I'm gonna splurge on his newer 3 position switch this time to go with my 3rd new ignition switch!
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[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

Ray it ran better with the newer proper MPS yet not perfect it still has that erratic no load miss fire idle that clears only when the iAD temp sensor is unplugged. More than anything else it seems to be a vacuum related issue.

It runs fine while driving hot or cold no miss fire or hesitation. Just in drive the idle fluctuates just a tiny bit.

I'll need to check things over. Yet as I said all this began in 2009 when all the hoses and vacuum lines were replaced as well as the injector seals. Yes the runner hoses are suspect I did seal the IAD cover back in 97. The wiring and connectors might affect something yet they are not loose and the wires look fine not brittle or broken insulation can't say what there are like under the covered area. they are not flexible like new wire yet not rock hard and the connectors them selves are not brass they are a plated silver color and clean.

I don't hold myself up on the intake runners or push on them just hang over the engine by my back.

[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

I removed each connector from each plastic plug and got them to fit tight then put them back in the plug , did one connector at a time so as not to get them in the wrong place. not on connector had cracks on the rolled edges.

I clamped the short hoses at the IAD and runners.

I'm still going to replace some of the vacuum lines the ones to the trans and to the AAR from the IAD.

By the way this morning the fuel pressure was zero I suspect the pump all in one check valve not the regulator .

[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

[raygreenwood]

The problem with regulators.....especially now days with alcohol in the fuel....is that if you do not drive it much or often....a brand new regulator can be dead from rust pits on the metering plate in 6 months. Been there..done that.

Personally I would at least replace the regulator now. They are typically $50-70 new at various places on line. Ray

[blues90]

[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

[raygreenwood]

...sigh.....

Here is the deal. Ethanol along with the water it bears...along with wear can rust things quickly...or slowly. It MAY do the former.....it WILL do the latter.

You started a thread suspecting your AAR of small annoying issues with idle. From your responses that it does open and close all the way.....thats the last part i would suspe t causes any of your symptoms.

However.....the fuel pump check valve possibly leaking down.....and regulator leaking down.....and injector leaks can and will cause those minor but annoying and chronic symptoms.

Add to this....your car is the perfect candidate for those age and moisture related issues. Its rarely driven and not far and sits for periods....and has ethanol in the fuel.

You can keep driving it probably for years more without doing a thing or spending a dime.

But if I am right.....and there is no way to really know without testing the parts as I have suggested..........if I am right....it will just slowly get worse over time.

Back in the days of real gasoline you could drive a car once a month....fill up four times a year....and never bat an eye. Not anymore.

Also....fuel system aside.....the worst thing on suspension parts like shocks and bushings, and under the hood....hoses and manifold seals.....and for sure brake parts and hydraulics.....is inactivity.
Ray

[dooker]

Old topic but as I was pointed to this, used the tips and got my AAR to work I thought I share my 2 cents - I used smaller pipe pliers on both opening and closing. Initial post suggested to hammer the lips back but imo pliers do better job and will create less noise/mess
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[tmitoraj]

Is there any type of filter that could be put in line with the hose that runs from the air cleaner to the AAR that would filter any oil or fuel vapor that might cause the AAR problems down the road.