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Deves Piston Rings Experience
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KROC
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent info Ray, thanks for the links,

For the Plateau finish, if people are using the BRM ultra finish hone, Remeber they are Right hand rotation only, so you have to flip your barrel over to get the opposide direction finish.

Cheers.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KROC wrote:
Excellent info Ray, thanks for the links,

For the Plateau finish, if people are using the BRM ultra finish hone, Remeber they are Right hand rotation only, so you have to flip your barrel over to get the opposide direction finish.

Cheers.


One thing to remember. ...and this is one BRMs site and notes on it were in that article.

The ultra finish hone.....is NOT a hone for material removal at all. A plateau finish hone is a, stone hone. It could be solid stones....or a ball hone like from Brush research.

The plateau hone actually removes material. Slosly because its so fine...yes.....but it is an abrasive hone.

The ultra finish hone is designed to remove virtually "0" material. It is designed to clean grooves and valleys....and re-orient only the very tips of peaks that are thin and mangled at a microscopic level.

It does not have the ability to create a plateau finish. That is in articles on line and from BRM.

The utra finish hone is designed to be used AFTER plateau honing. It is effectively a polish hone. It can be used right after standard honing if no plateau finish is desired.....but nit in place of an actual plateau hone.
Ray
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modok
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disagree.
If that were true, then there would be no danger of over-honing with it, see they only advise 10-18 strokes??
Those brushes are new but they work no different than the sunnen brushes, which are not new at all.
http://www.goodson.com/blog/2012/01/13/a-new-finish-in-honing/
The difference could be grit. Lets say the brush is a 600 grit, and for these rings a 220/400 would be better, hell a 220/320 may be better, but it's not a HUGE difference. A plain cast ring needs SOME roughness to seat. Modern rings do not, but these are not modern rings.

Ray, as much as I appreciate your interest and investigation....... I think your looking at this through tinted glasses.
There is no indication these rings require a special finish. They are not pre-lapped, they are not low tension, they are not thin, they are not moly face. This is a PLAIN cast iron ring.
They may require a GOOD cylinder finish, and what is good and bad is easier to teach in person than explanation, but there is more than one way to do it. If the cylinder takes a lot of work to clean the grit out of.......then it's not a good job IMO, but plateauing over a crummy job does not improve the accuracy of the base finish!! That may be the problem HERE, but it is not the only problem.
What is the problem with them??? It probably needs leaded gas. Shocked

I think now that you have the knowledge and tools to do a good cylinder finish that you should get a moly face top ring, and throw away those deves soft iron compression ring. Ask a PRO if they would use a plateau finish with a 2mm wide ring.........??? don't focus on the details and miss the bus
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Disagree.
If that were true, then there would be no danger of over-honing with it, see they only advise 10-18 strokes??
Those brushes are new but they work no different than the sunnen brushes, which are not new at all.
http://www.goodson.com/blog/2012/01/13/a-new-finish-in-honing/
The difference could be grit. Lets say the brush is a 600 grit, and for these rings a 220/400 would be better, hell a 220/320 may be better, but it's not a HUGE difference. A plain cast ring needs SOME roughness to seat. Modern rings do not, but these are not modern rings.

Ray, as much as I appreciate your interest and investigation....... I think your looking at this through tinted glasses.
There is no indication these rings require a special finish. They are not pre-lapped, they are not low tension, they are not thin, they are not moly face. This is a PLAIN cast iron ring.
They may require a GOOD cylinder finish, and what is good and bad is easier to teach in person than explanation, but there is more than one way to do it. If the cylinder takes a lot of work to clean the grit out of.......then it's not a good job IMO, but plateauing over a crummy job does not improve the accuracy of the base finish!! That may be the problem HERE, but it is not the only problem.
What is the problem with them??? It probably needs leaded gas. Shocked

I think now that you have the knowledge and tools to do a good cylinder finish that you should get a moly face top ring, and throw away those deves soft iron compression ring. Ask a PRO if they would use a plateau finish with a 2mm wide ring.........??? don't focus on the details and miss the bus


Its quite possible you are right. No....the glasses are not rose tinted.

I chose the Deves rings because they are notorious for running a very, very long time.

This particular type 4 engine has a pretty good collection of NOS parts....and was the original serial # to this chassis.....of which I have documents back to the assembly line printout and plates from four countries. Every scrap of paper ever generated including the Blaupunkt wolfsburg 3 am shortwave box and installation receipt....along with the motorola that came out of the dash....and the German tourist plates.....that and as a 412 4, speed......they shipped less than 4000 total.

So I have an interest in its longevity.
All it my rolling museum piece. Laughing

The Deves rings are the same one that factory used in the first generation Saab 900.....the vast majority of which (including mine) regularly run to over 300k miles.
A lot of BMW, Mercedes, Volvo and Porsche people that I know..... buy them for the same reason. When they work....they work exceedingly well.....and therin lies the problem.

And....I have asked plenty of pros. Its quite common to use a plateau finish on Deves rings....and other soft...and brittle rings.

So.....if I can get them, to seat....which appears to be a problem for about 50% of those I have spoken to..... I would kind of like to try them.

Thats the, beast with these. I have not found anyone who had negatjve things to say about these rings.....when they work. In fact......the reports have been excellent.....when they work.

I already knew how to hone properly before I started this. But.....you are right.....its JUST a cast iron ring......and a high quality one.

So what.....is the problem with seating it? They are most probably, brittle oncthe outer surface.....which is the strange ass metallurgy.....becausecthey, flex more elastically than most cast iron rings.

Also....the plateau finish for these......was, not my, idea. Virtually, everyone I have spoken to ....and thats a lot of people...have noted multiple failures on these rings....without a plateau finish.

But again.......you could be right that they are not getting the bore clean enough after primary honing. ....which by the way.....is what the ultra finish hone excels at.

By the way....with the ultra finish hone...they are worried about the number of strokes....not because it removes excess material.......it removes virtually nothing.....but because it will make the edges of the peaks too smooth to do any break in on the rings (plateau finish or not) It literally polishes them.

From surface profile readings after ultra hone that I have seen in articles and postings on other forums......it is not capable of creating a plateau finish. That is also direct from the factory. It fits...that its grit may be quite a bit above 400-600. Its a hone.....yes.....but its for polishing and cleaning. The bristle configuration is what makes it different.

I have used the same type of brushes for years on lifter bores and pin bores in pistons. You can run 50 strokes and not take off half of .0001. You are right. They are not new at all
Ray.
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modok
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:


The Deves rings are the same one that factory used in the first generation Saab 900.....the vast majority of which (including mine) regularly run to over 300k miles.



Pure fantasy.

Your saab has mahle pistons with chrome plated steel compression rings.
Go look! Yes your glasses tinted.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:


The Deves rings are the same one that factory used in the first generation Saab 900.....the vast majority of which (including mine) regularly run to over 300k miles.
A lot of BMW, Mercedes, Volvo and Porsche people that I know..... buy them for the same reason. When they work....they work exceedingly well.....and therin lies the problem.



Your Saab does not contain cast iron compression ring.

I expect you will find chrome plated steel ring.


Yes..... i think you are correct. Ill have to dig out the factory manuals (still have the, steel backed binders somewhere.....best damn book on CIS injection i have ever seen)

If I remember right .....top ring was chrome. 2nd ring.....not sure but I think it was cast iron. The oil ring was definately the pain in the ass 4 piece. But definately a Deves set.

The later models from 90s used a Goetz set depending on piston. Those were chrome top ring and cast iron with moly coat.

The pistons I have are KS NOS....the cylinders that came with them are NOS Mahle....and oddly enough were about .002" bigger in bore than ideal. I have two sets of lightly used Mahles from 411/412's that are actually better dimensions than the NOS ones......odd for a 1993 set of Mahles.

Anyway......I bought the Deves for their quality, my experience with them in Saab and reputation and recomendations from people I know who use them. ...4 years ago.

Its been in the interim time that I have found out what an issue people have had seating them......really...roughly 50% have at least initial issues. I would just like to know why.....and actually finally have the tools to find out if there is a method. ....maybe.

Im not married to them......but it would be nice to not have to tear this thing down after break In. Ray
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Juanito84
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this is a dumb question. With Deves piston rings, is there any orientation with the top rings. I can see the step in the second compression rings but the top rings don't have "TOP" stamped on them. I can't see any orientation. It looks like they could be installed either way. Is this right? Or am I missing something?
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modok
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instructions should say:
Barrel faced top ring, can be installed either end up.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Instructions should say:
Barrel faced top ring, can be installed either end up.


Yes, it should say that. All it says is: "Install the scraper (2nd ring), tooth down first, then the top ring."

I have both top and 2nd gapped to about .013".
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have been a thechnical right-er.
Now that they invented spell check.....I might do it! LOL
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thesatanicmechanic
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, my Deves ring installation experience has been limited to 911 engines with iron or Biral cylinders. I was instructed to perform a 280 stone hone crosshatch, followed by a 10 stroke maximum "polish" using a red Scotchbrite ball. Then each cylinder is cleaned with almost boiling soapy water until you believe it's totally clean, then cleaning it again. I'd spend an hour easily cleaning a set of six, easily.

Since the water was so hot, the cylinders would dry almost immediately. Next step would be to clean the bores with ether and a lint free cloth. If there was any discoloration on the cloth after the first pass, the cylinder was to be washed again. Final cylinder prep was a wipedown with penetrating oil to prevent flash rust. That was it.

This process always worked. The engine would smoke for 5 minutes or so until it completely dissipated.

I attribute the success of this method mainly to the extreme care I was taught to use when washing the cylinders after honing.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cylinders came pre-honed. But I used one of these:

Goodson Ultra Plateau Finishing Soft Hone

I'll be cleaning them out with hot soapy water too. One question. After the wash, is WD-40 ok to use to get the moisture off and prevent flash rusting? Seems like somewhere I read that WD-40 rejects oil or something.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

I’m gonna share my own recent experience with these rings. Just installed a set on a customers 2276. We reused the mahles that were in it already (fixed a previous engine “builders” nightmare) and opted to try the Deves rings with a fresh hone on the barrels. Cleaned the F out of the barrels as I always do before install. Installed dry with the total seal seating powder and 10w30 dino oil with Lucas zzdp break in additive for cam.
Fired it up on engine stand and saw smoke on start up which I expected to dissipate after a few minutes of running only to find it get worse as engine ran. Pulled plugs and could clearly see the oil was getting past the rings. Bit the bullet and tore the top end back off only to see all 4 cyls pooling oil on top sides of pistons and bore.
IMO these rings are garbage and shouldn’t belong in any engine. Too many horror stories I’m reading now. Not sure what the minority of builders that are having success are doing different but not worth the gamble or the extra $.
Wish I had known before all this… live and learn I guess!🙄
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

Two years ago I bought Deves rings from John@aircooled because they were advertised as their best quality ring for use in my 96mm used cylinders. In a later conversation with Modoc, he advised against using them and suggested Grant rings instead. Well being the stubborn old fart I am I said to myself "Just stuff them in, you have them. At worst you will need a new P/C set and going into a Manx copy it would not be a big deal to change them."

On installation I discovered that the oil rings were wrong. They were not the width advertised on the box and far too narrow for my pistons. I contacted John and he promised to make it right. He promptly sent out a whole new correct set including the compression rings. (anyone need spares?)

This being just an economy engine refresh I just honed the cylinders with 280 grit, cleaned and installed the rings and pistons. Now I know many of you will disagree here but I am old school and will never install or run rings dry so they got the usual soak in SAE 30 dyno oil and that is how they went in. No break in compound, Comet down the carbs or other such "trick".

Start up - the usual smoke cloud - cam break in went fine. Restart to drive it produced a moderate amount of blue smoke but 15 or 20 minutes later back from the highway run there was virtually no visible smoke. Now 2 years and 8 to 10K later - how is it? I do see the odd puff of smoke on cold start up, oil consumption is not ideal but I have been plagued with a fairly big oil gallery leak behind the flywheel. Release bearing, starter and clutch disc have been well lubed! Rolling Eyes Fixed now I hope. Plugs remain clean with no sign of oil burning there. Engine runs strong for a mostly stock one.

I have a couple minor oil leaks to address, then do a compression test and we will see how it goes this summer...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

I feel there should be a caveat or warning label of some sort on the Deves packaging; "Use at your own risk'"
Of all the engines I have built, I've never seen this. The only thing I've changed from my normal routine was the Deves rings and the total seal quick seat. Normally I use cast rings and oil up the cyl. So are the rings garbage or do they not like the use of the total seal quick seat?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

I think the reason people have different experiences is probably because they ARE NOT all the same. Not consistent.
Maybe depending on what particular size you order, or new stock or old stock......they could have different properties. Just don't know what to expect.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

This present sand rail engine I am about to start up got Grant rings. Why? Because of all the negativity here. Nothing to do with my experiance so far. Maybe this summer the Deves will go south - I don't know.

Is it possible your problems stem from starting them up dry? That is a lot of stress on a thin little ring! I can only imagine how hot the contact surface would get in the time it takes to get oil there! If you were to examine them under a microscope I would not be surprised to see pulled metal transfer and metal transfer.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

Trevor P wrote:
I feel there should be a caveat or warning label of some sort on the Deves packaging; "Use at your own risk'"
Of all the engines I have built, I've never seen this. The only thing I've changed from my normal routine was the Deves rings and the total seal quick seat. Normally I use cast rings and oil up the cyl. So are the rings garbage or do they not like the use of the total seal quick seat?


Exactly what I was going to comment. Why did you get the idea that they "NEEDED" quick seat? Not saying you were wrong.....but of the many people I have spoken to that have had excellent success with Deves.....not one used quick seat. However all but a couple used a plateau hone. But not all did.

And Modok's point is exactly what I was thinking....but I dont know if we mean the same thing.

Did you mean that you do not think that all Deves rings are the same or do you mean piston rings in general? I say both.

Yes.....no two applications of ANY piston ring manufacturer might be exactly the same. And especially between different mfgs....so why would one treat one brand like all the rest. Yea they SHOULD be similar enough.....but similar is not exact.

Also....Deves does not help this. I called them years ago......and they were like...."just a normal 280 hone" ......nothing to offer on lube, cleaning or plateau. Just the average cross hatch pattern. Like I got the janitor on the phone.

I will not claim to have the secrets to Deves rings. I have only at this point in time used a few sets ....three actually....since this thread in 2014. All in watercooled engines.....two with plateau hone and one without.....no issues.

But we were really paranoid in cleaning the bores.

But my point is.....as I noted in this thread back in 2014.....about half ....maybe a little less....of those I PERSONALLY have spoken to over the years.....have had failures with Deves rings on various cars.

Almost all of those people when I stary asking....ok....what did you do? How did you do it?.....not because i HAVE an answer but because I am searching for an answer.

Most of these people.....THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO PERSONALLY..... who have failures with Deves.....have been less than circumspect in one or more aspects of their methods. It looks like so many conversations in so many threads in so many forums on line. Either they treated them exactly like the same rings of other brands they have used forever.....or they were not so careful.

Most had no critical method of cleaning. Mostly no documentation. So its still a mystery as to why so many have great results and these get a rep for very long life rings......and yet so many have smoking failures as well. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

Yes I generally agree.
The total seal quickseat and using a break in oil IS helpful to make some rings seat faster.

Based on what Trevor says.... I think that was not the "right medicine" for that particular part number of rings in that engine. Good to know. But does it have a deeper meaning probably not. Ring manufactuers mix and match to make sets for many odd sizes, it's the same way for many things. For instance.....
Are AA pistons have good rings..... Yes, no, maybe
a 90.5 A piston uses wide iron rings with loose gaps
a 92 B has strange soft chinese rings nobody ever saw before
94 sets have a different ring too
so......you have to be a little more specific.

Do hastings moly rings work great in a 4" bore chevy, heck yeah.... no matter what sauce you pour on it, unless it's overfueled or eating dust.

If I order Hastings moly rings for a miata and hone it the same way how will it work........
I have no idea,
and I'll let the service manager put that into the right words to tell the customer. Same name on the box but it's apples VS oranges.
A long way of saying at your own risk Wink


As for having the right material and face profiles for odd things like air compressors, industrial engine, aircooled engine.... Grant gets it right nearly every time. They are not the best rings but they are consistent in that way so I can recommend it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Deves Piston Rings Experience Reply with quote

After Trevor contacted me about my experience, and pointed me back to this thread I now realize I never updated.

Well the rings never seated, after pulling down the top end and rechecking the rings to make sure no oil rings were overlapping etc,, reassembled, basically did another full warm up session or 3 and the james bond smoke screen down my front street never went away. I wanted to believe it was getting better after the first re run session but after a few more tries to tweak the carbs it never did get better, the engine is now running the original Weisco 94’s with the 2x2x4 tractor ring widths. From my old Nitros engine. These dont smoke one bit.

The Deves rings went in the garbage. We deglazed the cylinder, put Grant rings or Cima rings I cant remember now..on in place of the Deves and those are now in the 2275 of my other car.
No smoke no crank case pressure. No stress.....

Ya know I am probably at over 400 builds now in my lifetime. Hell could be off by a 100 ( maybe 500 ) I dunno, I have ran The cheapest chinese crap to the most meticulously honed and prepped high dollar race goodies, I have used NPR, Grant, Hastings, AA whatevers, Total seal. Dingle ball hone, Sunnen Hone, Totque plates, no Torque plates, yadda yadda,

Never ever have I had the smoke problems that I Had with the Deves Rings.

Never again . Waste of time and money.
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