Syncro Front Peloquin - worth doing?

[davevickery]

I am thinking of getting a front TBD for my syncro. I had one in the rear of a 2wd vand and it was pretty awesome for a lot of conditions.

I'm wondering if there are many people that have put one in the front of their syncro. I'd love to get some feedback. What were your expectations and how did it live up to them. Real world experience appreciated. Random thoughts are o.k. too

My goal is better off road traction but I don't want steering issues of a front locker. I was originally thinking a great setup would be front and rear Peloquins. But now I'm leaning towards a locker in the rear and TBD up front.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Dave

[luckystu]

I'm curious about this too. I have a non locking rear transaxle. Lockers are rare here in Australia so 'picking one up' so to speak isn't that easy. Also given the freight costs down to here GoWesty advised that a TBD would be the way to go. GW suggested they made a non locking syncro very capable indeed. As such I got to thinking is it worth doing the front and back, or just back. Sorry, not an answer but in support of your query.
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1990 Syncro Camper : 2.1wbx : Rear Locker : Decoupler : Camperize pop top conversion ; 2" lift and 16" CLK rims (215/70r16}

[hans j]

I'm also on the fence about that setup. I imagine it's pretty awesome because the TBD up front will help pull through corners and as long as both tires are in contact with a surface, it will pull.

The issue occurs when a wheel lifts, rendering the TBD useless. And vanagons lift the front tires a LOT! That is why a front locker is desirable.

A coworker has that setup in his discoII and swears by it. Open/locker in the rear and TBD in the front (he might even have a locker).

When I had spoken with Daryl (RIP) about it, he mentioned he pulled out his TBD because they caused the lockers to not engage as fast, due to less slipping. He had them front and rear and found the lockers were a lot more useful.

I decided against a TBD in the rear when I did my transmission. I'm still considering it for the front though. I feel it would be very nice in snow up front and many other places I drive. I just don't know if it's one of those things that will get me into more trouble with it than without it!

So far, I haven't needed one. What I could have used is a lower gear though in the really rough stuff. Lately I even try to get by without the rear locker. Only times I use it is when I know I'll have a weird angle and a rear tire will lift. I still exercise the locker often though to make sure it still slides nice.

With nothing really answered with all that, I'd say it would be a great upgrade and I will probably do it someday!
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1986 Canadian Syncro Westy TDI - 1989 Syncro Single Cab - 2001 Audi S4 - 1981 VW Caddy ABA - 1980 VW Caddy EV - 1973 VW T-181

[IdahoDoug]

Dave,

My experience is with my LandCruisers but it may apply here as well. I prefer lockers front and rear. With lockers off I get good road manners and safe mobility on icy slick roads. With lockers on, I can tackle crazy offroad obstacles more safely, more slowly and with less risk of damage to my vehicle. But the "in-between" nature of limited slip diffs, auto lockers and their close cousins can mean that they'll activate or deactivate at precisely the wrong moment once in a while. Sometimes that can mean bashing a rocker panel on a rock, or the front tires suddenly breaking traction on an icy road, etc.

So I'll always recommend driver controlled lockers to people who are going to put a vehicle through its paces and who will also have the knowledge on when to use them by committing to learning. And I'll always recommend auto stuff for people who just dabble in offroad driving lightly and wont explore their vehicle's full potential when with a group where its safe to do so, etc.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[luVWagn]

[kbeefy]

I've never had a traction adder in the front of a vanagon. In everything else I've had (jeep, rover, samurai) I prefer a selectable locker in the front. In a perfect world it would be 3 way selectable, open-posi-locked. But thats not an option as far as I know. I've had enough bad experiences with front traction aids that I'll stick with selectable or open.
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86 syncro CHC, NorthWesty subbie 2.5, decoupler, locker, custom interior, 225/75r16 Duratrack's on CLK's, Toyo cabin heater, ARB fridge, 300w Zamp Solar, Gowesty bumpers/skid/rails, Fiama awning

'86 Syncro Westy. Stock for now.

2000 F350 7.3 CC LB 11' Northland Cabover

2006 Subbie OBXT

2002 Tacoma DoubleCab 4x4

1969 Mustang Basket Case 351c/FMX/9

http://kbeefy.blogspot.com/

[davevickery]

Thanks, butt so far only conjecture. I found the same arguments against the rear peloquin in a 2wd but my experience proved it tho be more effective than what you might think.

Anyone got one?

[davevickery]

duplicate

[MarkWard]

I just installed a front differential with a front Peloquin locker. I only have one small road trip on it, combination of dirt and pavement. I honestly could not tell it was there. In other words zero torque steer. Locking takes a bit longer than I would like, but it does lock and then you can "feel" it. I was also running my refilled VC for the first time. All of it seemed invisible, which is a good thing I suppose.

To be sure, when I got home, I jacked up the rear of the van with two floor jacks. Set a 2x4 in front of the front tires and the van walked up over them like they were not there.

My decision was based on wanting the ability to lock the front end if needed. The Peloquin is a newly manufactured part and does not depend on the spyder gears when locked to transfer load, so I believe it is better suited for locking when needed.

I am no syncro expert. I am learning as I go with this project. I would recommend this part to a friend. Your results may vary.
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[davevickery]

Btw, I'm not trying to convince myself one way or the other. I could do nothing and just run the rear locker. Or for the same price I can get either a tbd or locker up front when I get the front diff rebuilt.

I found with the rear tbd, the rear wheels stayed more grounded, or it felt that way. I think one wheel breaks away a lot later with the tbd, so one wheel is spinning for a much shorter amount if time and with some momentum you carry through back to solid ground.

I don't think there is any difference is sand. Both wheels spin equally at least they did in my 2wd. And would steering be improved in deep sand? Like twisty washes or correcting as you go up something like truck hill.

On snowy roads I am assuming the tbd would be better.

In Colorado and Utah there are a lot of rocky uphill rutted trails where the locker would be more effective. I don't think I would want to pay for a locking tbd, so thinking locker or tbd. Diff needs to be opened up to fix oil seeping, do this seems like the time to decide.

Rancho said he sells more front tbd, and very few front lockers.

[davevickery]

duplicate post

[MarkWard]

For a few dollars more you can have a "locking" feature for the TBD peloquin added. It utilizes the vanagon locker servo etc. Unlocked it acts like a conventional TBD.
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[gears]

Peloquin makes two versions, both of which fit our Syncro vans .. so it may be helpful to differentiate which one you have:
"Peloquin TBD" fits all 091, 091/1, & 094 front & rear diffs.
"Peloquin TBD w/ full locking feature" ("FLTBD"?) fits any of the above that is equipped with vacuum actuator.

Then of course we have standard Open diffs,
and the Syncro's FL Open diffs.

As Hans says, Daryl found it difficult for the Syncro's vacuum actuators to engage the full locking feature of Peloquin's FLTBD, so he reinstalled standard Syncro FL Open diffs. (It's probable that a simple manual push/pull cable actuator would solve this balkiness issue with FLTBDs.)
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[BavarianWrench]

I have a Syncro that GoWesty built 9000 miles ago with the TBD front and rear. I only ran the front for a a brief trip due to their decoupler front bearing being spent/loose, causing yoke driveshaft vibrations. The Diffs themselves are slick. I feel if you can keep momentum in the van they are great and will not fail you. TBDs causes you to be somewhat of a charger on the trail. I have a dirt bike for that. I am actually kind of a softy when it comes to the Syncro. I like to crawl and not have my pots and pans bouncing into their no stick surfaces. The diesel with front locker is a game changer. I do not have power steering and that is a challenge. When locked on loose gravel it is still hard to turn.If you are crawling and running steep slow rocky climbs, locker is, well locked! If you are more baja style or a light tin top rig, I like the TBD. The TBD is always there versus, shit I hope I can back up and lock in, for the moments you misjudged or couldn't see what was around the corner. I want TBD with a locker, because I can tell people at the coffee shop about it.

[BavarianWrench]

deleted redundant post

[MarkWard]

[davevickery]

Thanks for the replies. I'm leaning towards the locking version now. It looks like it is only $100 more. I read a post that Daryl at AA had removed the LLSD due to slow engagement, but that doesn't make sense to me. Just don't use it if it is slow, why remove it. And you still ahve the option to use it. Meanwhile the TBD is still there. For $100 difference it seems dumb not to get the locker version. Maybe my costs are wrong but I have a call in.

[edit] I get it now about removing the LLSD for a open locker. If you want a fast locker so bad you're willing to give up the Peloquin LSD. I think I'll try the LLSD up front and just the locker in the rear.

On a related note, I sent my nose cone off yesterday to AA for one of their decouplers. I tried to get one of the German ones, but couldn't find any available in the US.

[tjet]

[tencentlife]

I have a OEM locker in the back, I'd like a locker in front for rough offroad work, but I would be very reticent to put in anything that can influence steering without my deliberate input. And the Peloquin lockers are easier to find than an OEM locker, reasonably priced, and brand new vs. someone's worn-out over-valued German lump. So I've always planned for when I have the dinero to buy a Peloquin locking assembly, move my OEM locker diff to the front, and put the Peloquin locker in the rear where it would work for me on the mixed snow/ice/dry winter road surfaces we usually have here in the southern Rockies, plus be a help in the sandy washes, spring mud and such I deal with just getting home year-round. And I'd have selectable front and rear lockers for wheel-in-the-air offroading, deep water fording, etc.

For any relative difficulty in locker engagement on the Peloquin, I already use a positive air pressure servo on my rear locker and would apply the same to the Peloquin, that should help overcome any additional drag in the assembly. It's a slam-dunk on the stock locker compared to the anemic vacuum devices, and I only run at about 40psi, I could go up to 100 with the servos I use. The servos conversion will be offered for use with my Redshiftt control system.
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[Sodo]

I'm pretty interested in a front Peloquin up front too. It's certainly easier to go a lockin' than the vacuum pneumatic and all it's trappings. Perhaps less cost too.

I'd like to know (by personal experience!) whether a Peloquin on the front diff can actually can be felt on the steering. I've read accounts by people who said "I never feel anything". Well this could mean that you haven't driven it in conditions that it's locking while you're steering. Or maybe it was locking but you didn't need to "steer" at that moment it was locked. There are a myriad of conditions.

And I've read accounts from people describing steering with a LOCKED VW front locker. I haven't done it ut I can imagine it. I know the difference locking the front on my ATV (manual "handlebar" steering).

I'd like to hear a report from someone who drove with a Peloquin automatic locker for some period of time (hours?) in automatic-front-locking-required conditions. I know two people who have Peloquins up front, and have not been satisfied by their descriptions. One of them, I will see soon but I don't think I'll be able to drive his van in automatic-front-locking-required conditions.....

And there's making the Peloquin lock by dragging the footbrake (to get over the hump) and how reliable this is (compared to the knob). That's another important question.

An (air/vacuum/pressure) locker on the front requires an action to lock and to unlock. There are pluses and minuses to this. One of the pluses being the special illumination. Agreed that the 40 psi can be more authoritative than 5-7 psi of an engine-vacuum system. And that's 5-7psi at sea level; at 10,000 feet is 30% less. 40psi can do the same work with a piston area 1/8th the size of a vacuum actuator, so it's easy to see how it can work better. The other plus being that it's "for certain locked" A minus being that it doesn't unlock and re-lock automatically.

Once someone has a Redshift knob, then of course they need positive pressure pneumatic lockers and the special indicator lights front and rear. 40 psi (or 100) is significant compared to 5-7psi vacuum but. If the creator of the Redshift system doesn't have it, why should anyone else? Tencent you have no choice actually, you MUST have it - a luxury in some respects. And the tax write-off is a little break too.

My burning question though, is, comparing:

Peloquin plus real locker in the back, and basic Peloquin in the front
----to----
Peloquin plus real locker in the back, and Peloquin plus real locker in the front
----to----
Peloquin plus real locker in the back, and VW real locker in the front
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb