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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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great idea! First prize for Simplicity. NO tools required. CAN be used to fill the Westy Propane tank. No Dangling Required.
Awesome! First prize for Simplicity and Versatility. NO tools required. CAN be used to fill the Westy Propane tank, from a 1lb bottle. Dangling optional.
| msinabottle wrote: |
Here's the tap:
and here's the hose:
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Innovative! First prize for Simplest Tap idea.. Tools required. Can NOT be used to fill the Westy Propane tank. Dangling required.
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
Here is the quick connect on the Aux tank.
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Vantastic! First prize for Most Complexity and Versatility. Tools required for Installation of tap one time only. Can NOT be used to fill the Westy Propane tank. Dangling required.
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baltik
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Joined: April 08, 2015
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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you don't really FILL the tank with either of these methods.
you transfer over some gaseous propane. but that only lasts as long as it does.
the westy tank holds 2.3gals of liquified propane. and 2.3gals of vapor from your aux tank.
| Quote: |
| For example, 1 gallon of liquid stored under pressure in a container will expand to approximately 270 gallons of vapor |
the burner on a westy is ~5200btu and iirc the fridge is ~800btu (both are variable to where they're set)
| Quote: |
1 lb. of Propane 21,600
1 Gal. of Propane 91,000 |
lastly
| Quote: |
| One BTU is the amount of heat energy required to raise one pound of water by 1ºF. Water weighs 8.33 pounds per gallon so we can calculate that one gallon of water requires 8.33 BTU to raise the temperature 1ºF. |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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Just a word to the folks who think they can "Fill" the propane tank up in their campmobiles with any of these arrangements.
You won't.
The propane will only leave the donor tank until the pressure equalizes in the vans tank, from the donor tank that all you"ll get.
So, using that 1 lbs canister you will only get a half pound.
If you have gas in the vans tank, back off, the 1lbs. tank could explode if the tank on the van has more in it than the small tank.
You guy's gotta be real careful with this miracle cure to running out of propane filling deal.
No filling is possible.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
| the westy tank holds 2.3gals of liquified propane. |
Is this correct? I thought it was 3.3gal.
I'm starting to gather the info how to do this, but haven't tried it yet. The only experience I have thus far is from refilling 1 lb disposables from a 20 lb tank. You have to think about liquid, pressure, temperature etc to influence the flow of liquid. It would be nice if there was a method to weigh the westy tank.
I had a hose made up at an RV shop, similar to what baltik posted except it goes to a 20lb tank. My intent is to use a 20lb cylinder to "top up" my Westy tank (at home) before hitting the road. This same hose could be used with the 20lb tank "upright", just transferring gas to keep things running. But I don't want to bring the 20 lb cylinder on the road.
Since you don't have a pump, you have to think of how to us the difference in gas pressure to push "liquid propane" from the donor tank to the Westy tank. When the donor tank is warmer, its gas pressure is higher. Westy tank colder = lower pressure thus liquid will transfer.
- Turn the donor tank upside down, so the gas pressure forces liquid transfer thru the hose.
- For the most liquid transfer, the donor tank should be warm, and the Westy tank cold. So bring the donor tank into your house the night before (to warm it) then transfer in the morning when the Westy tank is cold.
- The hose will be full of liquid propane. Longer hose = more waste upon disconnect. There is a way to drain some of the liquid into the tank. After shutting off the donor tank, you want the hose vertical so as the hose warms its own gas pressure pushes liquid down into the tank. You may be able to vent the westy tank to drain the hose. And put the hose under your armpit. Etc. 
No smoking, etc, and be very careful of static electricity/spark. There are good reasons this is not done by everyone and his dog. If gasoline was invented yesterday, filling stations would be much different, they would never trust a regular person to be smart enough to do it. Think of this process like gasoline invented yesterday and be careful.
When the Westy tank is "full" it has some amount of liquid, with some remaining space for the gas above it. Filling it beyond this amount is not safe. I'm not yet clear how to determine when the Westy tank has reached the "full" capacity. Is this determined by cracking open the bleed screw and liquid blows out (flashes to vapor)? Do you crack the bleed screw with the tank-valve open or closed?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:57 am; edited 3 times in total |
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baltik
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2015
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| Just to make it clear - my intent is not to fill the westy propane tank, rather it is an emergency measure if we run out of propane in the middle of the night and need to run the propex for another hour/make breakfast in the morning... |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| baltik wrote: |
| Just to make it clear - my intent is not to fill the westy propane tank, rather it is an emergency measure if we run out of propane in the middle of the night and need to run the propex for another hour/make breakfast in the morning... |
If this is the case then there is no need to try to refill the tank with liquid propane. Just connect the 1lb can to your tank and run off the propane vapor it will provide. When you are done cooking then disconnect the system and go on your way. 
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'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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<<When the Westy tank is "full" it has some amount of liquid, with some remaining space for the gas above it. Filling it beyond this amount is not safe. I'm not yet clear how to determine when the Westy tank has reached the "full" capacity. Is this determined by cracking open the bleed screw and liquid blows out (flashes to vapor)? Do you crack the bleed screw with the tank-valve open or closed?>>
This is exactly why the 80% valve is there, to blow of any excess when the tank fill is at this point.
You would be much better off using an Extend A Stay hosed into the lines.
You then could use the contents of the entire 1lb bottle, while trying to get the contents of that 1 lbs, bottle into the vans tank is an impossibility without a propane pump.
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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[quote="Terry Kay"]<<When the Westy tank is "full" it has some amount of liquid, with some remaining space for the gas above it. Filling it beyond this amount is not safe. I'm not yet clear how to determine when the Westy tank has reached the "full" capacity. Is this determined by cracking open the bleed screw and liquid blows out (flashes to vapor)? Do you crack the bleed screw with the tank-valve open or closed?>>
This is exactly why the 80% valve is there, to blow of any excess when the tank fill is at this point.
You would be much better off using an Extend A Stay hosed into the lines.
You then could use the contents of the entire 1lb bottle, while trying to get the contents of that 1 lbs, bottle into the vans tank is an impossibility without a propane pump.
Same with the twenty lbs.bottle, you'd be better off just feeding off of that by itself, by-passing the vans tank.
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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SODO, I don't think that the OPD valve on your portable tank is supposed to allow you to tip it upside down and dispense liquid propane.. see quote at bottom of this post
http://www.propane101.com/opdcylindervalves.htm
iirc, I don't have one here at work. Stock tank is 3gals
you are only supposed to fill to 80% so that's ~2.7gal
Gowesty sells the 10% larger 3.3gal tank
http://www.gowesty.com/product-details.php?id=2447
I have the much larger one that Busdepot clearanced years ago.
I have thought of how to DIY fill with a 100# tank and an inversion stand. but then I'd still have to take my 100# to/from the propane supplier..
| Sodo wrote: |
| danfromsyr wrote: |
| the westy tank holds 2.3gals of liquified propane. |
Is this correct? I thought it was 3.3gal.
I'm starting to gather the info how to do this, but haven't tried it yet. The only experience I have thus far is from refilling 1 lb disposables from a 20 lb tank. You have to think about liquid, pressure, temperature etc to influence the flow of liquid. It would be nice if there was a method to weigh the westy tank.
I had a hose made up at an RV shop, similar to what baltik posted except it goes to a 20lb tank. My intent is to use a 20lb cylinder to "top up" my Westy tank (at home) before hitting the road. This same hose could be used with the 20lb tank "upright", just transferring gas to keep things running. But I don't want to bring the 20 lb cylinder on the road.
Since you don't have a pump, you have to think of how to us the difference in gas pressure to push "liquid propane" from the donor tank to the Westy tank. When the donor tank is warmer, its gas pressure is higher. Westy tank colder = lower pressure thus liquid will transfer.
- Turn the donor tank upside down, so the gas pressure forces liquid transfer thru the hose.
- For the most liquid transfer, the donor tank should be warm, and the Westy tank cold. So bring the donor tank into your house the night before (to warm it) then transfer in the morning when the Westy tank is cold.
- The hose will be full of liquid propane. Longer hose = more waste upon disconnect. There is a way to drain some of the liquid into the tank. After shutting off the donor tank, you want the hose vertical so as the hose warms its own gas pressure pushes liquid down into the tank. You may be able to vent the westy tank to drain the hose. And put the hose under your armpit. Etc.
No smoking, etc, and be very careful of static electricity/spark. There are good reasons this is not done by everyone and his dog. If gasoline was invented yesterday, filling stations would be much different, they would never trust a regular person to be smart enough to do it. Think of this process like gasoline invented yesterday and be careful.
When the Westy tank is "full" it has some amount of liquid, with some remaining space for the gas above it. Filling it beyond this amount is not safe. I'm not yet clear how to determine when the Westy tank has reached the "full" capacity. Is this determined by cracking open the bleed screw and liquid blows out (flashes to vapor)? Do you crack the bleed screw with the tank-valve open or closed? |
| Quote: |
Before any propane cylinder (4 to 40#) can be filled with propane, the cylinder will be inspected to ensure that an OPD valve is installed on the tank. Propane companies can generally replace the non-compliant cylinder service valve with the required OPD valve quickly in order to bring it into compliance. Many consumers believe that the OPD valve was introduced to increase the profitability of propane dealers regarding cylinder filling. This statement could not be farther from the truth. When filling a propane bottle equipped with an OPD valve, the flow of gas stops immediately when the overfill protection mechanism closes. This is extremely hard on a propane dispensing pump resulting in more repairs and pump overhauls which can be quite expensive. The propane industry spends more money than they save as a result of the OPD valve requirement.
OPD Valve Information
Propane bottles equipped with overfill prevention valves are recognizable by the triangular hand wheel at the top of the valve itself. The hand wheel connecting to the valve stem is tamperproof and is not interchangeable with a cylinder not equipped with the overfill prevention safety mechanism. The OPD valve was not designed as a tool to let the bottle filler know when the bottle has reached its capacity. It was designed as a secondary safety mechanism. Bottles equipped with OPD valves are still to be filled by weight as required by law. |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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It seems like I've paid for 3.3 gals having my OEM westy tank filled from empty. Could be wrong.
I have an old propane tank that's NOT OPD style that I keep for this reason. It can be difficult to find a propane seller willing to refill an old (non OPD) tank. But you CAN get liquid out of an up-ended OPD tank. Maybe you just can't get all 20lbs liquid out. I refill the little green 1 lb disposables from an 20-lb OPD style tank.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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shepherdsond
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2005
Posts: 439
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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Several posts here seem to suggest that only vapor and not liquid can be transferred from an external gas container (e.g. 1lb bottle) to the Westy tank.
I am not a propane expert but when I did the review that started this thread I weighed the 1lb propane bottle before and after using it to "fill" my Westy tank and its weight dropped by almost exactly 1lb, it also sounded empty when shaken.
Since writing this review I have twice used the adapter while camping to keep the propex and stove working until I could refill the tank at a station. It provides great peace of mind, good piece of kit.
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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The tank & the 1lbs. bottle can only equalize in pressure.
The tank will not suck the bottle dry.
It's just physically impossible to get the entire bottle into that tank without a pressure pump.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
| It's just physically impossible to get the entire bottle into that tank without a pressure pump. |
If the donor tank is warmer than the Westy tank, the pressure is higher. So you invert the donor tank, and the higher pressure forces the liquid propane out the valve, thru the hose, and into the Westy tank. A business can't operate like this, they need to git'er done. But a Vanagon owner can, and will, often in an OCD manner. 
You can get most of the propane out but not all of it. Here's a pic of the top of a 1 lb disposable cylinder. You can see about 1/2 inch of liquid won't come out.
A new disposable 1lb is about half full of liquid so I suppose you can get about 90% out as liquid. Some may be lost in the hose; you have to warm the hose to get it into the tank. Otherwise it flashed to gas in the air when you disconnect.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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shepherdsond
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2005
Posts: 439
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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I think I understand the concept but there are two ways that I think it might work (and it does seem to):
1. If vapor from the tank can enter the hose that connects the two bottles and bubble up through the liquid gas into the top of the inverted 1lb bottle then the pressure will equalize and the bottle could empty (this assumes that the liquid gas level in the Westy tank is below the level of the valve).
2. If the 1lb bottle is much warmer than the Westy tank then it could potentially develop enough pressure to expel most of the liquid. (edit: what Sodo just said above just after I wrote this but it didn't take more than a 2-3 minutes)
From the noise that it makes when you connect them I am guessing that #1 is happening - as you might expect if you had a similar closed system with water.
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87 Syncro Hightop Camper
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2.2 Phase II Subaru
Hi-Top build thread:
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| shepherdsond wrote: |
2. If the 1lb bottle is much warmer than the Westy tank then it could potentially develop enough pressure to expel most of the liquid. (edit: what Sodo just said above just after I wrote this but it didn't take more than a 2-3 minutes)
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This is what's happening. But you need to have the donor tank inverted so the liquid at the bottom gets forced out by the pressure difference. It does not have (much) to do with the "water level" but it's best to have the entire hose vertical too, so the heavier liquid is always downhill & forced into the Westy tank.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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Perfoming this transfer by an untrsined, unprofessional, is dangerous, and not at all healthy.
Be sure to have a kevlar suit on while your at it.
Propane should be introduced as a vapor, tank to tank not liquid.
Go for it.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9609
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
Perfoming this transfer by an untrsined, unprofessional, is dangerous, and not at all healthy.
Be sure to have a kevlar suit on while your at it.
Propane should be introduced as a vapor, tank to tank not liquid.
Go for it. |
What TK says is true. If gasoline was invented yesterday there's no way untrained persons would be allowed to put it into cars. Liquid propane is flammable too and has about the same energy per gallon as gasoline. But it doesn't hang around waiting to ignite like spilled gas does, it flashes to vapor instantly and blows away.
You should have a good understanding of what liquid propane IS before doing stuff like this. Open valves slowly, watch, listen smell for leaks. Don't open the valve all the way, it takes that much longer to get it closed, just open them a little, like 1/4 turn, 1/2 turn etc. If you detect a leak turn off the valve quickly.
If liquid propane gets on your skin it will freeze your skin (instantly) as it flashes to vapor. That will be painful. If it leaks don't touch it.
Aside from that, it can be done.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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shepherdsond
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2005
Posts: 439
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| Quote: |
Aside from that, it can be done |
Indeed it can
_________________
87 Syncro Hightop Camper
3 knobs + solid shaft
2.2 Phase II Subaru
Hi-Top build thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=534517 |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:22 am Post subject: Re: Propane Tank Refill Adapter (from 1lb bottles) - Review |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
Perfoming this transfer by an untrsined, unprofessional, is dangerous, and not at all healthy.
Be sure to have a kevlar suit on while your at it.
Propane should be introduced as a vapor, tank to tank not liquid.
Go for it. |
So propane tanks are filled at hardware stores and gas stations in the US by trained professionals wearing Kevlar suits?
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