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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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 Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:01 am Post subject: |
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You can definitely lay out the bottom tack strip on the van to see where it falls, then mark it for reference. The pieces go right up against each other so you can't position it wrong (the humps in the roof and the recesses in the strip center it front to back). That would show you how much potential overlap you have. It could be more than 3/4", I didn't measure it. You could also trim the westy roof a little big and lay it on top and mark it to see how much overlap you would have and how much more you can cut off it.
A seam along the top but under the poptop isn't a big deal in my mind. It will be somewhat hidden by seal sealer and repainted. It should be structurally as good or better, so the fact that you will be able tell it was grafted on doesn't bother me.
If you want to make sure you're syncro roof cut isn't too wide, it might make sense to do it from below with a sawzall. I drilled holes from inside, then connected the dots on the roof and cut from outside. Since the tolerances are tight, I think cutting from inside would help keep you from going too far. You want the hole in the syncro roof to be exactly flush with the roof reinforcement "hoop" that runs around the inside of the van.
Not like I know what I am talking about, but maybe it's helpful to hear what I ran into.
This is the syncro roof line that you are trying to cut flush to. The westy top fits right up against that verticle support "hoop" that runs all the way around the van, so you have to go out at least that far so the Westy roof can drop down in.
Above you can also see the center reinforcement that you have to deal with.
In the front I went up to the front brace. I think I read that you can cut that out and use the brace from the Westy, but leaving it make following the roof cut easier.
The picture below just gives you an idea of the amount of trimming/cutting you have to do to get to a bare roof skin with just the one thin bracket that you need.
After you cut some of the extra metal away the westy roof starts to take shape. You can see the center support that you have to work with. I cut it out and left about and inch, and bent it down, so it will slip over the insides of the reinforcement on the syncro van. That support plus the roof adhesive plus the inside welds should give it plenty of support. The bent over tab, will also prevent any bowing in or out. Ideally that should be welded, but once you put the roof skin on, it is covered. Maybe making an access hole would work.
Here is the westy skin layed into place on the syncro. You can see all the spot weld cutouts. It isn't looking too pretty yet, but it will start to look more finished soon. You can see the tab that hangs down (with all the drilled holes) fits right into and flush against the syncro roof reinforcement so there is no side to side or front to back movement.
TIP: don't use a large spot weld cutter like I did, use the smallest one possible to keep those holes smaller. I just used what Harbor freight had, but oreding on online makes more sense- I think one with an OD of 1/4" would be better than what I used. And take the time to center the bit and not let it slide around. You really want it centered right over the spot weld, or it will take you more time later to finish breaking the spot weld.
As you look at these, you might wonder if going all the way out to the gutters would be easier. Someone might say, "that's why I said the gutter method is easier". Hard to know the first time you do it, especially with so many different opinions.
Dave |
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
Dave, I think I understand about the precision required. Could you locate the trim on the syncro prior to cutting out the tin top roof? If you get it right, 3/4 of an inch overlap with good adhesion I imagine would be plenty. I appreciate you taking the time to reply and post updates.
What did you decide to do about the hinge area? mark |
I imagine 3/4" overlap is the minimum you would want. It isn't like you have two pieces of perfectly flat metal that lay over each other nice and snug. It takes some squeezing together to get them to lay flat. If you get the cuts very precise in the syncro, maybe you can cut the westy top back to the canvas trim piece and still have enough overlap. My cuts weren't precise enough so I backed off doing it that way.
I'm doing the rear hinges like everyone else, my roof skin flares out at the back and I put the westy braces in. The braces are kind of flimsy, and I thought of making some, but it is easier to just reuse them.
TIP: be careful of your cut lines around the hinge area (especially on the westy roof) lave yourself as much extra on your first cut as possible. The syncro roof has to be cut back more than you would think to have access to mount/weld the brackets so on the Westy top cut it as far down as you can in the back, then trim it later.
Last edited by davevickery on Wed May 06, 2015 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sir Sam
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Joined: July 19, 2009
Posts: 1690
Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| davevickery wrote: |
TIP: don't use a large spot weld cutter like I did, use the smallest one possible to keep those holes smaller. I just used what Harbor freight had, but oreding on online makes more sense- I think one with an OD of 1/4" would be better than what I used. And take the time to center the bit and not let it slide around. You really want it centered right over the spot weld, or it will take you more time later to finish breaking the spot weld.
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The problem with smaller spot weld cutters is that its very easy not to cut the whole way around the spot weld. If you missed a small section of weld it will be difficult to break the remaining bit of the weld.
Depending on how perfectly round the spot weld is will affect how easy it is to break it loose. Some spot welds are centered top and bottom nicely while others have an offset from top to bottom.
I'm not sure what size spot weld cutter harbor freight sells currently but the ones I have gotten in the past were appropriately sized for body use.
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Dave, little lost on the hinge explanation. Are you overlapping the syncro roof with the hinge section from the camper? Are you swapping over the hinge nut support brace too? Are you gluing the hinge area or welding? I guess if you are carrying the cap out further to the gutters you could remove the roof under the hinge area. I am sure it will make more sense if you post up pictures of your cap glued down. Are you intending to finish that outer edge of the cap and feather it in to the existing roof section with some body filler?
I have to say, your thread really seems to speak to someone that has only thought about this project. My syncro donor is so beat up, I am starting to think maybe converting my 2wd camper over, might yield a better result. I was worried about taking the 2wd off the road for an extended period of time, but it looks like I may have more free time come the fall. Thank you again for the updates and explanations. mark
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
| Sorry Dave, little lost on the hinge explanation. Are you overlapping the syncro roof with the hinge section from the camper? Are you swapping over the hinge nut support brace too? Are you gluing the hinge area or welding? |
I'll post a pic when that's done. Everything is being glued with panel adhesive. My seam is a couple inches up from the gutter.
From this thread, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598979 his picture shows the hinge area where the bracket fits underneath You have to cut away enough of the syncro roof to fit that bracket in there and weld it. My seam is more like where his pen marks are. I'm not sure how he fit the bracket in there and welded it without the seam being further down. In the Westy, the bracket is welded on both edges and the outside edge of the bracket is below where his seam is?? Maybe he just tucked in and didn't weld that outside edge.
Here's the bracket you take from the Westy (not the part with the big holes, just the thinner piece that you can see is welded on top of it. This picture is not from the same conversion, since it is going all the way out to the gutters.
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Dave, I got it. Grafting the camper cap at the canvas attachment point would not account for how to deal with the roof hinges. I had looked at the thread with the picture you posted with the brown cap. I recall I even asked about the hinge area. If you look close in the picture you linked. There is sheetmetal under hinge holes, yet the cap seems to be welded across the back hatch area. I really can't tell.
I know that those that don't graft a cap but just cut an access hole are able to deal with the hinge area by just adding a nut plate from below. To me, that method would leave the hinges binding at the wrong angle.
Takes lots of pictures if you would. On the brickwerks UK site, a member was able to massage the tin top sheet metal to accept the hinges in the stock location. I recall he used welded nuts to attach the hinges. mark
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:58 am Post subject: |
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If you want to hide the seam at the back, you could just come out to the outer edge of the hinge.
BTW, that little bit of slope on the tintop is doesn't affect the hinges. That is how people do it with the "small hole" method. But if you have the Westy roof, you might as well use the flat hinge spot too.
You could use the Westy plate the same as a threaded bar underneath and not fasten it, but you might as well weld whatever you can reach, to keep it from moving if you ever take the bolts out.
It is finally starting to dry out here, but in the meantime I have been sanding and repainting parts. I have been too slow with this project and now I have to miss Syncro Soltice. |
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DAV!D
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Joined: September 10, 2013
Posts: 979
Location: EL CAMINO
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| davevickery wrote: |
| rsxsr wrote: |
| Sorry Dave, little lost on the hinge explanation. Are you overlapping the syncro roof with the hinge section from the camper? Are you swapping over the hinge nut support brace too? Are you gluing the hinge area or welding? |
I'll post a pic when that's done. Everything is being glued with panel adhesive. My seam is a couple inches up from the gutter.
From this thread, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598979 his picture shows the hinge area where the bracket fits underneath You have to cut away enough of the syncro roof to fit that bracket in there and weld it. My seam is more like where his pen marks are. I'm not sure how he fit the bracket in there and welded it without the seam being further down. In the Westy, the bracket is welded on both edges and the outside edge of the bracket is below where his seam is?? Maybe he just tucked in and didn't weld that outside edge.
Here's the bracket you take from the Westy (not the part with the big holes, just the thinner piece that you can see is welded on top of it. This picture is not from the same conversion, since it is going all the way out to the gutters.
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Just to give you a heads up, but that entire bracket with the 4 holes needs to be removed and moved to the new van if you go that route. When I started my conversion I was under the impression that you only needed the the smaller section with the thread inserts. The truth is a tin top van doesn't have any of that bracket, including the part with the 4 holes.
I did my swap with out that entire bracket. Instead I doubled up the sheet metal & used the cut off bracket with the thread inserts. I then used both body panel glue & tac welds to hold it all in place. Seems plenty strong enough to me.
The only way to add in that entire bracket is to remove the entire tin top roof at the rain gutter.
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86 Syncro Build - Ecotec Motor Swap - Pop Top Conversion - Camper Build & Syncro Conversion |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Just to give you a heads up, but that entire bracket with the 4 holes needs to be removed and moved to the new van if you go that route. When I started my conversion I was under the impression that you only needed the the smaller section with the thread inserts. The truth is a tin top van doesn't have any of that bracket, including the part with the 4 holes. |
DaveVickery, how about a picture of your syncro with the roof cut off of the hinge area? Maybe there is a difference in years. Thanks
edit: here is a side view from another thread showing just the nut plates welded to the syncro unibody.
From this thread. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=502828
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| DAV!D wrote: |
Just to give you a heads up, but that entire bracket with the 4 holes needs to be removed and moved to the new van if you go that route. When I started my conversion I was under the impression that you only needed the the smaller section with the thread inserts. The truth is a tin top van doesn't have any of that bracket, including the part with the 4 holes. |
Not true on my van, I only needed that 1.5" wide piece. Everything was same otherwise. Mine are an 89 Syncro and 91 Westy.
| rsxsr wrote: |
edit: here is a side view from another thread showing just the nut plates welded to the syncro unibody. |
No, that is the same structure as the earlier picture. You can just make out the edges of those large circles (top left), under the bracket you need. I don't have any pics, but mine looks just like this red van except I didn't cut the roof skin down that far. |
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Syncro Jael
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Location: Utah
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| davevickery wrote: |
| DAV!D wrote: |
Just to give you a heads up, but that entire bracket with the 4 holes needs to be removed and moved to the new van if you go that route. When I started my conversion I was under the impression that you only needed the the smaller section with the thread inserts. The truth is a tin top van doesn't have any of that bracket, including the part with the 4 holes. |
Not true on my van, I only needed that 1.5" wide piece. Everything was same otherwise. Mine are an 89 Syncro and 91 Westy.
| rsxsr wrote: |
edit: here is a side view from another thread showing just the nut plates welded to the syncro unibody. |
No, that is the same structure as the earlier picture. You can just make out the edges of those large circles (top left), under the bracket you need. I don't have any pics, but mine looks just like this red van except I didn't cut the roof skin down that far. |
Yup Dave, that is all we needed also. The small piece that the hinge bolts to. Make a good measurement before you weld it in place so the hinges line up correctly. You are getting there and it will all be worth it soon. 
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| My tip for lining up the bracket under the roof skin: I layed the top on and positioned the bracket, drilled small holes through the bolt holes into the reinforcement below, put some dry wall screws through them to temporarily hold the bracket in place. Then I took off the top, drilled a few other holes on the bracket and pop riveted in so the bracket won't move prior to welding. |
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DAV!D
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Joined: September 10, 2013
Posts: 979
Location: EL CAMINO
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| davevickery wrote: |
| DAV!D wrote: |
Just to give you a heads up, but that entire bracket with the 4 holes needs to be removed and moved to the new van if you go that route. When I started my conversion I was under the impression that you only needed the the smaller section with the thread inserts. The truth is a tin top van doesn't have any of that bracket, including the part with the 4 holes. |
Not true on my van, I only needed that 1.5" wide piece. Everything was same otherwise. Mine are an 89 Syncro and 91 Westy.
| rsxsr wrote: |
edit: here is a side view from another thread showing just the nut plates welded to the syncro unibody. |
No, that is the same structure as the earlier picture. You can just make out the edges of those large circles (top left), under the bracket you need. I don't have any pics, but mine looks just like this red van except I didn't cut the roof skin down that far. |
Interesting my 86 didn't have them, so I had to reinforce the mounting point with extra sheet metal. I had already cut the brackets from the Westy so I couldn't use Westy supports.
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I had a shop glue the roof skin down with panel adhesive. Just as well since it was dumping rain the last several days. It came out about as expected. I'm not blown away and not kicking myself. Structurally I'm sure it is fine. But you can see the seam more than I hoped.
They had to drill some holes and put in temporary screws in a number of places to get the roof skin to lay flat. And it seems like they got it to lay pretty darn flat, although I'm sure it is hard to get perfect, a 1/16" raised anywhere is pretty noticeable. Then they used seam sealer over the seam and also to cover the screw holes. I would have done it the same way, as I didn't have enough clamps. I'm still working on feathering the edge with more seam sealer and should get it to where I am satisfied. The hinge area is most apparent.
I'd say anyone wanting to make it look perfect who not a experienced with body work might not want to use adheisive. Or maybe I just need to finish out the edge but I won't be able to hide it completely. It would be good to get more details on trying to hide the seam along the canvas tack strip. If I was going to do it again, I might try to do it just like Syncro Jael did, drill the spot welds, and weld it at the gutters just behind the rear hinges and just in front of the back of the luggage rack.
I'll post up a couple photos after I finish painting it. |
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Dave I'd like to see photos of what you got back. If you'd rather not post them, could you email me some? Mark
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davevickery
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Zeitgeist 13
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Now spray the top with bedliner, and I'll bet those raised areas will mostly be hidden
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'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Now spray the top with bedliner, and I'll bet those raised areas will mostly be hidden |
Thanks for your concern  Not to worry, it'll work out. |
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BavarianWrench
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Joined: January 18, 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Getting there Dave! The HOA still has not lynched you! Way to go. |
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Dave, thank you for the link to the photos. I'd say what you got back was about what I was imagining at least in the hinge area. I realize it is probably not exactly what you had in your mind, but regardless of where it overlaps, you are going to have an edge that needs to be feathered. I am surprised they did not think some duraglass would hold up to feather that edge. My hunch is if the sealer bonds as well as advertised, overlapped, that area should be pretty strong. Thank you for sharing this job. I know it is not easy to document, post up, and get critiqued. mark
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