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Early body, late pan. Two titles. Discuss.
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:44 pm    Post subject: Early body, late pan. Two titles. Discuss. Reply with quote

I'm driving on saturday to look at a '64 body on a '69 pan. The owner has two titles, one for the body and one for the pan. It's in a neighboring State, and the owner currently has it registered via the title for the body, but still has the title for the pan from its previous owner.
Let me say that the State it's currently in is really lax about any sort of regulations. NC is pretty lax too, but not as much especially when it comes to importing cars, which I've done several times. (I think there was some sort of scandal years back in NC with Porsche VIN's being sold for replicas.)

I'm going to have to import the car into NC, which will mean a DMV inspection in order to get an NC title for it.

I'm wondering if anyone has encountered this before. I was under the impression you'd want to register the car with the pan title. But does it matter?

I thought I'd ask here before I utterly confuse whoever I talk to at the NCDMV.
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Woreign
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typically the car will be titled according to the VIN on the pan. My Ghia is a 65 body on a 72 pan and is titled as a 72. The tax office here in Florida didn't even bother looking at the body VIN in the trunk. The car was previously registered in Alabama as a 72 as well. I wouldn't even mention the body tag to the NCDMV.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was under the impression you'd want to register the car with the pan title

I dont think you get to choose. In CA they register the pan. Your DMV should be able to answer a simple question with a simple answer shouldnt they? Cool
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I thought, that it was supposed to be titled via the pan. I don't know how it's been registered via the body. My concern would be the time lapse of the pan's title being (possibly) notarized years ago (seller says the pan is actually an old NC title), and the person selling me the car on the bill of sale would be different than the person listed as the seller on the pan's title.

Hey I wouldn't give the DMV here much credit. When I was importing a TR6 a few years ago, I got transferred to three different people on the same phone call before someone could properly explain to me the process of importing a classic car.
Who knows what'll happen when I blow their minds with a car with two titles! Laughing
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1967 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp, 4 lug steelies SOLD!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have two actual titles, someone moved that body to that pan and kept both titles. Should probably be done via the pan numbers.
If you only have the body title then you could have problems.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

...every state is different. Some states are relaxed and others go strictly by the book.

I agree, in most states, the title goes with the pan. Get both titles if you can. Also, don't be short sighted...someday you may want to sell it and the state the perspective buyer lives in may insist on the title matching the pan and if you don't have that, you'll be up sh!t's creek.

The seller doesn't care about you. He will tell you anything to sell. Make sure the '72 title in the previous seller's name is usable...meaning, make sure it is signed and not dated. some states require the seller's signature be notarized.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the DMV in NC physically examine your car to verify the VIN?
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

70 140 wrote:
Does the DMV in NC physically examine your car to verify the VIN?

Yes, but only when importing a car because of the Porsche VIN scandal years ago. If I can use the old NC title for the pan, then it wouldn't require an inspection because as far as they're concerned I wouldn't be importing the car. My concern is just the time gap since the last registration on that title.

djway3474 wrote:
If you have two actual titles, someone moved that body to that pan and kept both titles. Should probably be done via the pan numbers.
If you only have the body title then you could have problems.


Yes, as stated in the first post it's a 64 body on a 69 pan, and the seller has titles for both.

ZENVWDRIVER wrote:
...every state is different. Some states are relaxed and others go strictly by the book.

I agree, in most states, the title goes with the pan. Get both titles if you can. Also, don't be short sighted...someday you may want to sell it and the state the perspective buyer lives in may insist on the title matching the pan and if you don't have that, you'll be up sh!t's creek.

The seller doesn't care about you. He will tell you anything to sell. Make sure the '72 title in the previous seller's name is usable...meaning, make sure it is signed and not dated. some states require the seller's signature be notarized.


Yes, the seller said she'd give me both titles, so no problem there. I will definitely make sure the title for the '69 pan is legit, signed, and notarized.
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1998 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L overhauled by Jake Raby SOLD!
1967 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp, 4 lug steelies SOLD!
1998 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I-6, 17" factory wheels SOLD!
1975 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc DRLA40's, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1972 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1974 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp, bullet turn signals, steelies SOLD!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see that it would matter how old the title is as long as its valid. I don't think its unusual to have an old car titled but not registered for a long period of time.

Since you have both titles I think you are covered. Also not unusual for a chassis swap on an old car.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some questions I was thinking about:

1) Were both Pan & Body titles transferred/registered originally to the same person at some point? Meaning, the person that did the body swap likely had the Pan registered, and then got the body from the '64 and registered it as well...

So now two titles, and transferred/registered to the same person--I would assume, correct?

2) Then, the car was sold...And new owner only Transfers/registers the body....but pan Title was given... was it also transferred into their name? Or is the pan title still in the previous owner's name?

If not, then that may be an issue...right? It's not uncommon to buy a car, and then turn around and sell it to someone else...but I'm pretty sure the state will want to collect taxes on both sales... and will also want the bill of sales for both transactions and current dates... right?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If not, then that may be an issue...right? It's not uncommon to buy a car, and then turn around and sell it to someone else...but I'm pretty sure the state will want to collect taxes on both sales... and will also want the bill of sales for both transactions and current dates... right?

Good info^^^ There could be funds due, and that would affect value/price. I would make sure what the total new regis fees would be before I released $$.
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just spoke with an inspector at the NC DMV, after getting re-routed about 4 times to different people who had no idea what I was talking about.

So, the inspector told me that NC is a frame state. They only care about the frame title. Once I import it, a new title will be issued based on the frame. Apparently they don't care about the vin on the body.

Just to clarify, the title for the frame was not re-issued to the current owner/seller and is still in the previous owner's name. The frame title has NOT been registered since prior to the swap. I'm verifying with the seller that the frame title is indeed clear and notarized before I drive down there.
The title for the body was re-issued to the current owner/seller, as that's how they registered the car in SC.

I asked the NC DMV about that, because the seller name on the frame title is going to be different than the seller name on the body title and bill of sale. He said that it wouldn't be a problem as long as I bring all the paperwork with me when I go to register the car.

In all honesty, I'm a little nervous about this now.
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1967 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp, 4 lug steelies SOLD!
1998 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I-6, 17" factory wheels SOLD!
1975 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc DRLA40's, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1972 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it sounds like a big of paperwork but it will probably all work out. My guess will be they will want proof that the pan belongs to the current owner and they have rights to sell it. I'd just make sure that despite not registering the pan, the current owner has a bill of sale from the first owner at the least...then you can explain the paper trail of what was registered (body) and it was legit. If the pan title is signed over to the current owner, that will help with the paper trail, even if they didn't file the paperwork to re-register it in their name. If it's not, then it may be easier to just bypass that and find the owner who's on the pan title and have them draft the bill of sale to you... and forget all about the body registration. Smile

Hope that makes sense.

Good luck.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't speak for NC but here in Ohio they won't even look at the body title if one exists, the bill of sale or even the VIN on the body.

All they care about is the VIN on the pan. If out of state car they would do VIN inspection from the pan and give you a stamped form to use it to issue a new Ohio title. If I were you I wouldn’t volunteer additional paperwork unless they ask, I would make sure the pan title is clear and in the seller name, have it notarized unless it is a none notary state e.g. CA and hand the pan title to DMV. Of course still get the bill of sale and body title from the guy just keep it for yourself.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The seller scanned the pan title and emailed it to me. It is a clear NC title from 1999, unfortunately it isn't notarized and they don't have a bill of sale for it. Mad

She said she might be able to track the guy down though and get his signature notarized on the old title. We'll see what happens.
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1967 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp, 4 lug steelies SOLD!
1998 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I-6, 17" factory wheels SOLD!
1975 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc DRLA40's, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1972 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Vins and titles Reply with quote

I have a ghia with a 1968 floor pan with a 1968 back half body. The front clip is a 1966 with the underhood gas tank ( the 68 has an outside filler flap). It is licensed as a 1968 coupe. This is how I bought it and how it was titled when I got it. This stuff happens. The main important stuff to remember is: what is the intent. To defraud or misrepresent the car when sold, or to disguise a stolen car? For my car it was fully disclosed to me before I bought it and I will disclose it when I sell it. They put the body plate of the 68 on the 66 front end clip. I am fine with that. This car will never be very valuable, but it will be back on the road. Saving one Ghia at a time. The issues really arise when someone is not told and they cannot make an informed decision. With me I had to look closely to tell were the repairs were done. They were done professionally and correctly. I guess you could get a reconstructed title which shows were the different parts came from.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Vins and titles Reply with quote

zzhayward wrote:
I have a ghia with a 1968 floor pan with a 1968 back half body. The front clip is a 1966 with the underhood gas tank ( the 68 has an outside filler flap). It is licensed as a 1968 coupe. This is how I bought it and how it was titled when I got it. This stuff happens. The main important stuff to remember is: what is the intent. To defraud or misrepresent the car when sold, or to disguise a stolen car? For my car it was fully disclosed to me before I bought it and I will disclose it when I sell it. They put the body plate of the 68 on the 66 front end clip. I am fine with that. This car will never be very valuable, but it will be back on the road. Saving one Ghia at a time. The issues really arise when someone is not told and they cannot make an informed decision. With me I had to look closely to tell were the repairs were done. They were done professionally and correctly. I guess you could get a reconstructed title which shows were the different parts came from.


Yeah, that's not really the issue. The car was presented honestly as a 64 body on a 69 pan. The problem is the NC DMV. They are incredibly strict about what they will and will not register, especially when it comes to importing classic cars. And in NC it would be titled only as a 69, since that's the year of the frame. They don't care about the body year here.
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1966 Karmann Ghia, under construction
1998 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L overhauled by Jake Raby SOLD!
1967 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp, 4 lug steelies SOLD!
1998 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I-6, 17" factory wheels SOLD!
1975 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc DRLA40's, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1972 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1974 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp, bullet turn signals, steelies SOLD!
1974 Triumph TR6 with O.D., metallic blue, stock everything SOLD!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Vins and titles Reply with quote

Era Vulgaris wrote:
zzhayward wrote:
I have a ghia with a 1968 floor pan with a 1968 back half body. The front clip is a 1966 with the underhood gas tank ( the 68 has an outside filler flap). It is licensed as a 1968 coupe. This is how I bought it and how it was titled when I got it. This stuff happens. The main important stuff to remember is: what is the intent. To defraud or misrepresent the car when sold, or to disguise a stolen car? For my car it was fully disclosed to me before I bought it and I will disclose it when I sell it. They put the body plate of the 68 on the 66 front end clip. I am fine with that. This car will never be very valuable, but it will be back on the road. Saving one Ghia at a time. The issues really arise when someone is not told and they cannot make an informed decision. With me I had to look closely to tell were the repairs were done. They were done professionally and correctly. I guess you could get a reconstructed title which shows were the different parts came from.


Yeah, that's not really the issue. The car was presented honestly as a 64 body on a 69 pan. The problem is the NC DMV. They are incredibly strict about what they will and will not register, especially when it comes to importing classic cars. And in NC it would be titled only as a 69, since that's the year of the frame. They don't care about the body year here.

I have to laugh to myself every time I read where you say "import" - has North Carolina seceded from the Union once again? Smile
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Vins and titles Reply with quote

KGCoupe wrote:

I have to laugh to myself every time I read where you say "import" - has North Carolina seceded from the Union once again? Smile


Ha! Depends who you ask! Laughing
Luckily I live in one of the state's bigger cities where people are (somewhat) rational.
Seriously though, NC is massively strict when it comes to...ahem...trying to register cars bought out of state.
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1966 Karmann Ghia, under construction
1998 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L overhauled by Jake Raby SOLD!
1967 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp, 4 lug steelies SOLD!
1998 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I-6, 17" factory wheels SOLD!
1975 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc DRLA40's, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1972 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI, 5 lug fuchs SOLD!
1974 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp, bullet turn signals, steelies SOLD!
1974 Triumph TR6 with O.D., metallic blue, stock everything SOLD!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may run into issue of VIN plate missing at left side of windshield...

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