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greebly
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Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
All I can think of that some people may be over tightening the fittings or perhaps installing them before the locktight is dry.
I have installed this after leaving the Locktite to cure for a few days and all seems ok.
Looks like we have a trend - I checked my fuel rails after driving for a couple of days and there is a drop of fuel under the end caps on both sides. |
I have never installed loctite dry, the primers used or solvents need to dry but loctite itself is assembled wet, as an anaerobic adhesive the resin is meant to cure in the absence of air and the presence of metal. I doubt the fittings or threads were cleaned, acetone works well, alcohol is acceptable. Allow it to dry completely, then apply loctite and assemble. There are probably machining residues on the rail that are affecting the seal for some of you.
*edit, just read your post again and I gather you are inferring that some are assembling the rails using the loctite and using them immediately without allowing the loctite to "cure". I understand. Still would recommend cleaning before assembly with a solvent. Loctite Primer T would not be a bad idea for such a critical connection either. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Yeah, the white stuff ("teflon" tape) sucks!
But the bigger issue with tape (any tape) is with small bits of the tape bunching and breaking off only to be pushed down stream into the injectors clogging the injector nozzles.
Dave |
you got to use very little tape, and becarefull that none gets too close to the last (tip end) of the threads, then it usually causes no problems. used it in sensitive application with no problems if done with care. seen some tape jobs where it was wrapped many times and overlapped the end of the pipe, and that was on a toxic gas cylinder, phosphine (PH3) messed up the regulator, caused process problems. the guy who did that was literally a drunk. guy was fired a short time later for ignoring a lock out tag out notice for another toxic, arsine gas (AsH3) nearly killed an engineer, they walked him out on the spot, damn drunks.
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Merian
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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for folks that have had telfon tape get inside their fuel system, this link shoild be of interest to you, it explains clearly how to properly use teflon tape
Note that for the 1/8 npt thru 3/8 npt and fittings so common in our car hobby that 1/4 inch wide tape is recommeneded. often only 1/2 inch wide tape is available at the hardware store, so folks use it and end up with the tape overlapping the threads to close to tne nose of the fitting. this is a major source of tape contamination inside the system.
you can use the wider tape on small fittings if you back it off and leave the nose exposed, with excess width of tape on the putside of the fitting rather than inside.
read and learn
link...
http://edmonton.swagelok.com/blog/bid/316698/Skill-Applying-PTFE-Tape-to-Tapered-Pipe-ailable
as I stated above, been using this tape as an industry standard for decades in sensitive applications with fine orrifices, metering valves and low flow mass flow controllers, used with highly toxic (deadly in parts per million ppm levels) and pyrophoric (spotaniuos combusting) gasses, where leaks are unacceptable at any level, the fittings must pass helium leak detector tests.
teflon tape can be your friend if used correctly. screw it up and it can cause problems. if you cant do it right, use pipe dope. Either can work in a cars fuel system. in the highindustr gasses industry we didnt like dope as it can easily contaminate the system much more so tnan PROPERLY applied tape.
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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The Machinist
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Joined: November 16, 2009
Posts: 42
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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[quote="bluebus86"]
| Merian wrote: |
| the van cafe metal rail appears to be a better deal, a little more expensive, but they claim they leak test them, some thing gowesty is unwillling to do. It has but one threaded joint, but it is tested, so a leak would be on them, not the buyer. |
In case there was any doubt:
Link
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The Machinist
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Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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There are a couple of possible things contributing to issues with GW's fuel rail kits.
1. As I understand, there are no torque specs. "Nice and tight" seems to be good enough. That is quite subjective and will change significantly from one customer to the next.
An allen wrench in one hand, fuel rail in the other vs. fuel rail in a vise and an allen socket on a torque wrench.
2. Quality control. Not there. |
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t3 kopf
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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A guy from gowesty's answer to why they do not leak test their fuel rails was to say that they would be more expensive if they did. He claimed that there have only been 2 sent back for leakage but there are 3 in this thread. For my new Carat, I'm going with van café for sure.
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JustsomeKentuck
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Joined: July 19, 2016
Posts: 69
Location: Louisville KY, y'all!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: One and Done? |
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| msinabottle wrote: |
I went with and would still go with the Van Cafe--seamless, one-piece metal. If you're getting rid of the perfectly serviceable nylon ones to prevent the POSSIBILITY of disaster, the Go Westy version would still have a FAINTER possibility of disaster. I went for FAINTEST.
and
My call, but, my thinking...
Best! |
Could you tell me where you go the hose clamps? |
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T3 Pilot
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JustsomeKentuck
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Location: Louisville KY, y'all!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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Hi & thanks. Can you tell me what size? (mm). |
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T3 Pilot
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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The stock fuel hose clamps were 14 mm springs so I use these as replacements:
13mm ABA Mini, high pressure screw clamp, Stainless Steel, Phillips hex drive. Clamping range in mm is 12.5 to 14.0. These clamps are a sure seal for small, thin-walled hoses.
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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Be aware that ABA clamps come loose so you need to check and tighten then regularly.
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djkeev
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tech032
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Joined: July 14, 2017
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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This is a very interesting thread. I own and operate a VW repair shop and Im a bit neurotic about fuel leakage concerns. I just completed my personal 1984 westy restoration and how to deal with the aging fuel lines is and was my main concern. I decided that the one piece VC rails had the least likely chance for leakage. Obviously, fewer threads. I wanted the most OEM, accurate look, so the fuel line I chose was the CRP, made in Germany 7x3mm fuel hose. I have read the GW article in regards to the permeabliity of the Cali fuels on hose. We have alcohol blends that tend to destroy fuel hose. I dont know which brand they are selling, but I used the CRP, and ABA 13 clamps with the OE sleeve and VC rails. Upon startup, one of my rails had a minor drip develop at the blue plug. I contacted VC, they immediately sent a replacement and I have had no issue since. I put tamper paint around the plug, so if it leaks, the paint dissolves and its easy to spot. I just started driving the van, and no problems...but yes, you have to go back and retorque the ABA screws a bit. This is because the fuel line shrinks a bit once its run a few heat cycles, IMO. I also installed new hard lines and pushed them into the rubber lines, just like the engineers had planned. It goes in about three or four inches, and clamped with an ABA. GW sells barbed fittings, and it just doesnt seem right to me. Concerned about the polymer hard line splitting from the barbed adapter being shoved inside.
Im still thinking about replacing my rubber hoses with a documented alcohol resistant fuel line next year or so..but til the, Im rolling this setup. I honestly believe its probably a lot of overthinking, but the flaming van images are hard to shake from my head. Particularly after hundreds of hours and bucks spent on a restoration. My next upgrade is going to be some kind of fire suppression setup, I have yet to receive the Blazecut I ordered from GW a month ago. I wonder if anyone can attest to this newfangled idea actually saving a van from fire in their personal experience? |
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dgbeatty
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Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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| None of the metal fuel "rails" appear to have a pressure pulse damper built into them. VW thought it was important enough to include them originally. Many other makes also use them. So what to do? I suspect that a great many of the originals are no longer functional due to diaphragm failure. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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| dgbeatty wrote: |
| None of the metal fuel "rails" appear to have a pressure pulse damper built into them. VW thought it was important enough to include them originally. Many other makes also use them. So what to do? I suspect that a great many of the originals are no longer functional due to diaphragm failure. |
Would any dampening be necessary with rubber fuel hoses? |
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djkeev
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The Machinist
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Joined: November 16, 2009
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Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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| tech032 wrote: |
| This is a very interesting thread. I own and operate a VW repair shop and Im a bit neurotic about fuel leakage concerns. I just completed my personal 1984 westy restoration and how to deal with the aging fuel lines is and was my main concern. I decided that the one piece VC rails had the least likely chance for leakage. Obviously, fewer threads. I wanted the most OEM, accurate look, so the fuel line I chose was the CRP, made in Germany 7x3mm fuel hose. I have read the GW article in regards to the permeabliity of the Cali fuels on hose. We have alcohol blends that tend to destroy fuel hose. I dont know which brand they are selling, but I used the CRP, and ABA 13 clamps with the OE sleeve and VC rails. Upon startup, one of my rails had a minor drip develop at the blue plug. I contacted VC, they immediately sent a replacement and I have had no issue since. |
Very sorry about the failure. I don't know how it could have started leaking after it was tested. I have the fuel rail in question here. I'm trying to track down the reason for the leak.
What is your fuel pressure? Are you running a regulator?
And what's up with the RTV on the plug? |
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The Machinist
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Posts: 42
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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| dgbeatty wrote: |
| None of the metal fuel "rails" appear to have a pressure pulse damper built into them. VW thought it was important enough to include them originally. |
Where is the damper?
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