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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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The Machinist Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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djkeev wrote: |
Well, that answer that question without a doubt!
Thanks for taking the time to slice open the factory fuel rail!
Dave |
I had the same concern when I was asked to make the fuel rails. I sliced it open to make sure any hidden details were incorporated in the reverse engineering process. |
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tech032 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2017 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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Quote: |
What is your fuel pressure? Are you running a regulator?
And what's up with the RTV on the plug? |
Its all stock, new parts. The orange paint is tamper paint, not rtv. I put a bit around each plug and let it dry. If it leaks fuel, it dissolves the orange paint and its a quick visual "tell".
This is a pic of the fuel hose I used, made by CRP and marketed as high pressure fuel hose. I have had a hard time locating any data sheets on this stuff, and cant see if the markings on the hose have any relevence to the J30r9, or J30r7 standards. I have never seen this stuff leak, dry out, or crack in last ten years that alchohol has been used here. I have no idea what the state of Ca is putting in our fuel these days. The "made in Germany" usually makes me feel confident the product is legit..but all this new information has made me very unsure.
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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tech032 wrote: |
Quote: |
What is your fuel pressure? Are you running a regulator?
And what's up with the RTV on the plug? |
Its all stock, new parts. The orange paint is tamper paint, not rtv. I put a bit around each plug and let it dry. If it leaks fuel, it dissolves the orange paint and its a quick visual "tell".
This is a pic of the fuel hose I used, made by CRP and marketed as high pressure fuel hose. I have had a hard time locating any data sheets on this stuff, and cant see if the markings on the hose have any relevence to the J30r9, or J30r7 standards. I have never seen this stuff leak, dry out, or crack in last ten years that alchohol has been used here. I have no idea what the state of Ca is putting in our fuel these days. The "made in Germany" usually makes me feel confident the product is legit..but all this new information has made me very unsure.
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I too have found that hose to work well and since I can get it for about $7 per meter these days it is about the cheapest gasohol resistant hose out there. Haven't found any info on it either. |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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IIRC, J30xx is an SAE spec. maybe not ISO? or DIN
why not contact the manf. and ask if it meets EtOH mix specs _________________ .... |
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tech032 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2017 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I too have found that hose to work well and since I can get it for about $7 per meter these days it is about the cheapest gasohol resistant hose out there. Haven't found any info on it either. |
I called CRP today, and I got a person who has contacted Germany with my questions. I will post what I find when I get it. Hopefully, some documentation. I am pretty sure its going to be a 30R7 hose. |
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The Machinist Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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tech032 wrote: |
Upon startup, one of my rails had a minor drip develop at the blue plug. I contacted VC, they immediately sent a replacement and I have had no issue since. I put tamper paint around the plug, so if it leaks, the paint dissolves and its easy to spot. |
It looks like the threaded plug on the leaking fuel rail that was returned was removed and re-installed without thread sealant. Any chance that is the case? I leak test 100% of these, so I know it wasn't leaking when it left my shop.
When I took the plug out, I got no resistance from the cured sealant. I put more sealant on the plug, re-installed it and put it on the leak test fixture and it does not leak a bit. |
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tech032 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2017 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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The Machinist wrote: |
tech032 wrote: |
Upon startup, one of my rails had a minor drip develop at the blue plug. I contacted VC, they immediately sent a replacement and I have had no issue since. I put tamper paint around the plug, so if it leaks, the paint dissolves and its easy to spot. |
It looks like the threaded plug on the leaking fuel rail that was returned was removed and re-installed without thread sealant. Any chance that is the case? I leak test 100% of these, so I know it wasn't leaking when it left my shop.
When I took the plug out, I got no resistance from the cured sealant. I put more sealant on the plug, re-installed it and put it on the leak test fixture and it does not leak a bit. |
Never even considered opening the screws.no need to,Peter simply sent another |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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I see gowesty have changed the design of their fuel rails to a hexagonal profile instead of a round profile. Not sure what difference this makes but the plug on the end of the new ones looks smaller which suggests there may have been an issue with the previous plug.
I assembled the previous version of the GoWesty rails with sealant and tightened them to a snug fit as you would normally use for this type of fitting and they weeped fuel. I got a refund and bought the Van Cafe rails and they have been perfect. _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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The Machinist Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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tech032 wrote: |
Never even considered opening the screws.no need to,Peter simply sent another |
I apologize again. I can't figure out what happened, then. I am paranoid about these things leaking. I am holding them under pressure longer during the leak test. This last run of parts was really good. I didn't have to pull any of them for leaks. |
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The Machinist Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
I see gowesty have changed the design of their fuel rails to a hexagonal profile instead of a round profile. Not sure what difference this makes but the plug on the end of the new ones looks smaller which suggests there may have been an issue with the previous plug.
I assembled the previous version of the GoWesty rails with sealant and tightened them to a snug fit as you would normally use for this type of fitting and they weeped fuel. I got a refund and bought the Van Cafe rails and they have been perfect. |
That smaller plug means diminished volume inside.
The issue with some GoWesty rails leaking could be the type of thread sealant they supply with the kit. In any case, I don't trust my fuel rails without leak-testing first. That bad batch of plugs I received a while ago really made me concerned about checking every single part after assembly. |
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tech032 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2017 Posts: 16
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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The Machinist wrote: |
tech032 wrote: |
Never even considered opening the screws.no need to,Peter simply sent another |
I apologize again. I can't figure out what happened, then. I am paranoid about these things leaking. I am holding them under pressure longer during the leak test. This last run of parts was really good. I didn't have to pull any of them for leaks. |
The two I got just look like they were grabbed out of a bin and tossed into a plastic bag. Who knows. I was finishing up my westy restoration..new hoses, the rails, injectors, the whole bit. After driving it few miles, put it up on the lift and I saw drips off the one side. I wiped it off, applied tamper paint with my finger so I could see if it leaked again. The idea is that the fuel would dissolve the orange paint, make it easier to see the leak with a mirror from top later. Sure enough, it leaked..so I called Peter and he said the same thing! New shipped right out. Really, I didnt even consider touching the plug. Maybe an old one got mixed up. SInce then, no more leak and I check regularly. What kinda sealant is on those threads? I think your design is super clean and I like the fact that no logo to look at. |
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The Machinist Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2009 Posts: 42 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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tech032 wrote: |
What kinda sealant is on those threads? |
Permatex high temperature thread sealant. #59235 |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6798 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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I have a set of GoWesty's I haven't installed yet I bought for my '86.
Received a pair Van-Cafe's today for the Syncro.
I'm looking at both of them thinking 8 chances to leak vs. 2 chances...no brainer... Van-Cafe's are the winner.
Nice work "The Machinist"! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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tech032 Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2017 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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Merian wrote: |
IIRC, J30xx is an SAE spec. maybe not ISO? or DIN
why not contact the manf. and ask if it meets EtOH mix specs |
I finally got a reply from Continental (CRP) in regards to their fuel hose part N202811, or labeled "made in germany 7x3" NBR
quote-
"They stated that E10 fuels do not damage NBR materials but that only a “stronger” swelling takes place. They also stated that the hose will last for a standard vehicle lifetime."And, "They did state that this hose is not J30r9 or J30r7 compliant" I used Google to translate the PDF and attach as screenshot.
I recently had opportunity to rehose a van in the shop. She wanted the GW fuel hose kit. I used the hardlines and their crimp clamps. I think that their hose from Cohline is superior, albeit about .3mm larger inner diameter from what is imprinted on the casing. Im sure the CRP hose is fine, but the GW or Cohline hose is more of a "lifetime" hose. I took off the same CRP german made hose from this clients car and found her receipt dated 2012. The hose looked perfectly fine, and I cut open a long section and inspected it carefully..nothing out of ordinary. The difference in the two hoses is apparent when you sniff it. You can smell the fuel that permeates pre 30r9 hose, but you cant on the new standard hose. The Oetticker clamps worked OK, but they are tight on the barbed injector applications.It is almost impossible to pull the hardline out of this Cohline hose when you pull it, or off the barbed injectors fittings. Ill definitely use the Cohline in the future. By the way, if you order N2028111 hose from VW, its this hose (the NBR/Cr Germany one). They reportedly sell 7500 meters worldwide annually and to VW Canada and USA.
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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in my recent rebuild, the donor engine had J30R7 hose. have no idea when it was put on, didn't look terribly old as the print was 100% legible, but i took a length of it i'd removed from the engine, holding the ends of a 2' section i bent it once and it snapped in two!!
-dan |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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In another thread, it was getting lost in the discussion about the previous shop doing a lousy job, price-gouging, and the general decline in the quality of the auto service industry, so I figured it would be fitting to repost here.
Here is how I addressed the engine fuel lines. As part of the process of replacing the fuel lines at the injectors, I decided to take a little bit different approach.
I used 5/16 OD steel line (top of first pic) for the main fuel lines that crisscross the engine. It all fits perfectly, no leaks, and a potentially more permanent fuel line setup. I still have the short rubber lines at the injectors and short sections at the fuel pressure regulator but all rubber lines are now fairly easily inspected.
The blue aluminum parts I got off Ebay for a couple bucks each. Search "1/4 air manifold". As can be seen in the pics there is an extra 5th port that I plugged with an allen plug. I also purchased a barb fitting for that port that I can install for testing fuel pressure. The spacing for the injector barbs is perfect.
I ordered the brass barb and compression fittings from fittingsandadapters.com. The total shipped for all the brass fittings was ~$40. The parts list was as follows:
(4) 1/4" mpt to 5/16" 90° barb
(4) 1/4" mpt to 5/16" compression
(2) 1/4" mpt plug
(1) 1/4"x1/4"x1/4" compression tee
(1) 1/4" mpt to 5/16" straight barb (for installing in place of one of the plugs when testing fuel pressure)
The steel line I got at a FLAPS. For bending and installation of the steel lines I needed to remove the alternator. I did not need to remove the A/C compressor. I needed 7' total for all of the engine compartment lines.
I used 1' of appropriately rated fuel hose for the injector lines and the small sections at the FPR. |
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t3 kopf Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2012 Posts: 1114 Location: over by 'der
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
I see gowesty have changed the design of their fuel rails to a hexagonal profile instead of a round profile. Not sure what difference this makes but the plug on the end of the new ones looks smaller which suggests there may have been an issue with the previous plug.
I assembled the previous version of the GoWesty rails with sealant and tightened them to a snug fit as you would normally use for this type of fitting and they weeped fuel. I got a refund and bought the Van Cafe rails and they have been perfect. |
Same thing happened to me back in 2015. _________________ '90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
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CJVango Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2011 Posts: 10 Location: Home is where you park it
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:55 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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The Machinist wrote: |
tech032 wrote: |
Never even considered opening the screws.no need to,Peter simply sent another |
I apologize again. I can't figure out what happened, then. I am paranoid about these things leaking. I am holding them under pressure longer during the leak test. This last run of parts was really good. I didn't have to pull any of them for leaks. |
Just installed a set of these VanCafe aluminum fuel rails. They worked fine for about 5 minutes before developing a steady projectile stream from one of the blue inserts.
Lucky I caught it because it was not leaking the first few times I started it, rather when I was leaving the shop at 1 am in the morning mind you, I took one more peak underneath while idling and there was the puddle, further inspection proved a steady stream was flowing from the insert, for sure it would have been a fire had I not caught it.
I took them out and installed the old plastic and drove home. I don't know that I could ever trust these after that, ironically its this thread and other posts on the web that had me but the VC rails, but they leaked terribly for me.
I suppose the truth is some of these are going to leak even after all these years of production. I think I’ll just stick with the plastic rails, what a nightmare this was so lucky to catch the failure before I drove home. |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Metal Fuel rails.. GoWesty? VanCafe? Others? |
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The el-cheapo manifolds I got off ebay along with the steel line and compression fittings worked perfectly without a leak until the engine tossed the water-pump belt, overheated without warning and popped a head gasket. The engine was then pulled for a TDI swap. |
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