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Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL
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bkeith85
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's official. I LOVE the Hurst shifter. That, and the stiffer seat have really made this car nicer to drive. Before, I was having some doubts about whether I could handle driving it every day, but now I am feeling much better about that idea. I drove it to work today and yesterday. That's an hour long drive at an almost constant 60 mph. It did great, but I have a couple other issues:

It's LOUD! All the weather stripping back there is new, the insulation under the engine cover is in good shape, and the fiber board on top is pretty good. I want to get a rubber mat or some carpet to see if that helps.
It may be the old quiet pack muffler. I did dump a lot of rust out of it. For all I know, I'm running a straight-pipe. It also hits the rear apron occasionally, so that could be some of it. I have some other exhaust pieces I am going to try soon. It's not unbearable, but it definitely isn't quiet. I've seen videos of stock T3s and you can barely hear them running. I need to get closer to that.

The other thing is noise related too. At any speed over about 55, the engine sounds like it is revved to 10k rpm. Maybe I am just used to high geared cars, but it sounds like I am killing this thing to go 70 mph. Other folks talk about cruising all day at 80 mph, but I can't see it. Again, maybe it is just loud exhaust that makes me think it is revved so high. I tried to put a tach in it, but it turns out that my tach/clock mod isn't that accurate. I think it shows about 500 rpm low. It says I am idling at 500 rpm and that I am shifting between 2000-2500 rpm, which my ears hear as 4000-4500 rpm. I'm not one to short shift a car, I may not hit the redline each time, but I get the rpms up between gears.

I also found out this morning that my speedo is off by about 5 mph. I am running 185/65R15 tires, which are pretty close to the stock size. I think they are just under 4% shorter than stock. I guess I will just have remember that it is off.
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Donnie strickland
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's loud when compared with any car built in the last 25 years or so. Another mat in the back will help. I once carried a La-Z-Boy recliner in the back of mine, and it was really quiet with the whole back insulated like that. Not really practical for everyday use, though. Very Happy

And yes, it sounds like the engine's revving really high once you get over about 60mph. It just takes some getting used to, but it's really ok. Whenever my wife drives mine on the Interstate she stays at 60 -- she says "That's where it sounds like it wants to be".
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bkeith85
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing... I finally got a chance to start cleaning up my cluttered garage and last night, I finally found my missing engine notes. Hooray! Now I get to see what those numbers look like.

Here are my final deck height measurements, WITH a 0.010" base shim installed:

1. 0.0415"
2. 0.0405"
3. 0.0445"
4. 0.0395"

With my heads at 50.9cc - 51 cc, my static compression ratios are:

1. 7.95:1
2. 7.97:1
3. 7.89:1
4. 7.98:1

I'm sure there are folks who are cringing and shaking their heads, especially at #4, but I think it will be ok. If not, I'm sure it will let me know as soon as there is a problem. If/when that happens, I'll come right back here and admit I was wrong.

I'll say this, it runs pretty dang good for a 1600, not that I really have any experience to base this on, though.
It runs smooth and pulls hard through the gears. I never have to floor it, half throttle is all I need. Around town I am usually passing everyone, except on takeoff, because 1st and 2nd are so low, and again at 70+ because it sounds like it's screaming and I hate to push it much faster. I'd love to try a 3.88 R&P, but that may have to wait on more $$ or the T4 swap.
I still don't have the jetting to my liking, but it is pretty close. Once that is perfect, and I can get some cooler air into the carbs, it'll be great.
It doesn't even sound like a VW, (well a Beetle with the stock peashooters) which I like.
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bkeith85
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donnie strickland wrote:
Yes, it's loud when compared with any car built in the last 25 years or so. Another mat in the back will help. I once carried a La-Z-Boy recliner in the back of mine, and it was really quiet with the whole back insulated like that. Not really practical for everyday use, though. Very Happy


Ha ha, yeah that would be tough to manage on a daily basis.


Donnie strickland wrote:
And yes, it sounds like the engine's revving really high once you get over about 60mph. It just takes some getting used to, but it's really ok. Whenever my wife drives mine on the Interstate she stays at 60 -- she says "That's where it sounds like it wants to be".


That's about where mine seems happy also. I'm sure I just need to get used to it. I got closer to 70 this morning, but using my GPS, I realized that my speedo is about 4.5 mph slow, so it was only about 65.

My buddy pointed out that part of the noise problem is from not having any carpet in the car. He is probably right. I keep forgetting that there is supposed to be carpet in there. He is bringing me a 3/8" thick rubber mat to go in the back. Maybe that will help. I may use that in place of the stock fiber board stuff, since mine is coming apart in places. I could also put it on the engine cover, then cover it all with carpet or a thinner one-piece mat.
As soon as I can get the floor patched, I can put some carpet back in it. That should make a big difference.
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bkeith85
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of patching floor pans, has anyone used the patch panels from ISP West? I ordered one of their right rear quarter pans and I am waiting on it to get here. I couldn't find anyone who posted anything about them. I've been happy with everything else I've gotten from them, so I figured I would give them a shot.

I know the Gerson pans are awesome, but I don't need a full pan half. I really only need a battery tray piece, but I got a bigger one just to make sure. The area under the rear seat support panel is kinda iffy. If I got a Gerson one, I'd almost feel obligated to take the body off and weld in the whole thing. It would be a shame to cut a small section out of such a nice (and expensive) piece. I paid about half the Gerson price for this ISP one. If only Gerson would sell quarter sections... I think they are missing out on a lot of business. He could cut a full one in half and then charge more than half price for each piece. You'd save enough on the shipping that it would even out.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkeith85 wrote:
Speaking of patching floor pans, has anyone used the patch panels from ISP West? I ordered one of their right rear quarter pans and I am waiting on it to get here. I couldn't find anyone who posted anything about them. I've been happy with everything else I've gotten from them, so I figured I would give them a shot.


I believe Thom used them on his t-34, but that was a while ago. The big key was whether or not the patch panel was big enough to cover the hole. Wink He seemed to like them.

Yes, these cars aren't very quiet when compared to modern hondas and the like. Sound deadening has come a long way in the last 40 years (when the newest t-3 was built), and most manufacturers don't even build a wagon any more, so you don't really have anything to compare to. You also have to realise that these cars were low cost transportation (less than 3K new), and vehicles of the same age and costs are almost just as noisy. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true. I'm not knocking it or anything, but I was concerned that it was TOO loud. That maybe something was wrong. I have an old quiet pack muffler on it and as everyone knows, they rub the apron. I had dimpled the muffler so it wouldn't rub, but I didn't do it enough. I fixed that and re-installed it last night. Maybe it will be better.

I also did some testing with another muffler I have and I think a lot of the problem is inside that old muffler. I don't know if it is partially blocked, but the other muffler made a difference. It was quieter and it didn't seem like the engine was working as hard. I still have some work to do to make it fit, but when it is done, I will post some pics.

Until then, I thought I would share my distributor rebuild project:

I had noticed that my rpms would hang a second before dropping to idle. I tried stiffer throttle springs and adjusting the idle speed, but that didn't help. I found some posts about a sticking vacuum advance and realized that could be my problem. I was also seeing oil leaking near the distributor and it had oil inside it. It was time for a rebuild.

I took it apart:

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and cleaned everything real good:

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Since this is supposed to be used with EFI the distributor is typically set to about 0 degrees base/initial timing. Anything more, and you start hitting 35-40 degrees total timing under load. That's not good. Carbed cars tend to start and run better if they have a few degrees of initial timing. The carbed '67 Type 3 had 7 degrees initial, so I made that my goal. I wanted to limit the mechanical advance so it wouldn't go over about 32 degrees.

This is what I did. I cut some tiny steel arms from 16ga. steel:

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And welded them to the plate under the advance weights:

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I left the upper half free, so the tabs could be adjusted inward:

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I added new phenolic washers, since mine had disappeared:

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And reassembled the distributor shaft. To get the mechanical advance in the ballpark, I printed out a tiny degree wheel I found online. it was about 2" in dia. I cutoff half of it and held it under the advance plate to see how far it moved from rest to full advance. Oops, I forgot to mention that I did this before I took it apart to see what it was stock. I think mine had something like 20 degrees of mechanical advance at the crank, stock. That equates to 10 degrees at the distributor. I wanted to pull about 7 to 10 degrees (at the crank, 3.5 to 5 at dist.) out, so I bent my little tabs to limit the travel of the weight, which reduced the rotor advance by about 5 degrees. I then made sure both weights hit their tabs at the same time.

I put everything back together with new phenolic washers where the shaft goes through the body. One of mine had disintegrated, which allows too much end play and allows oil to leak into the distributor. The felt pad inside the body should stop some of that, but it was almost gone. I ordered some new felt and replaced that too. I think my endplay was still a little on the loose side, but it was way better than before.

I also modified the rotor to remove the resistor, since I am using resistor plug wires. I dropped it back in the engine and checked the timing and advance. Right now, I have 7 degrees initial timing and max total timing of about 30 to 32 degrees. It fires right up with authority and runs great. I may experiment with more initial timing, but for now I like it. Sure, I could have bought a Mallory for $300+. Well, actually, I couldn't - that's a lot of money. Most folks would consider this to be too much effort for such a small detail, but I got what I wanted out of it.

And no, I don't feel that this would replace having your distributor properly rebuilt and tuned on a distributor machine. I just didn't want to put that kind of work into a points distributor at this time. I have other plans for an electronic ignition system further down the road.

Sorry I ran out of pictures. I guess I get excited toward the end of these things and forget the camera.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Thread mate.... Keep up the good work Dancing
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bkeith85
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woo hoo, I'm back!
Sorry it took so long, but I've been working 110% on my Dad's tractor for the last few months, so I haven't done much on my car.
I had been trying to drive the car as much as I could, but I finally got the floor patch panel for the passenger side so I decided to stop driving it as much until I get that put in.

I also discovered this:

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I have been trying to decide what to do about it.
I could just weld in some flat sheet metal, but I know that's kinda half-assed. So, I will put up a want ad for some patch panels and see if anything turns up.
I also have some rusty spots here:

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Here:

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And here:

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It's only rusted through in the areas shown in the first and last pics. Pieces on either side of the engine cover are rusty, but still solid. Overall, the floor isn't that bad, except for right behind the seat.
I'm not going to try to replace all of it, just the really bad spots.

So, if anyone has some good rust free metal, let me know. I'll have an ad up in the classifieds in just a bit.

The rest of the car is slowly progressing. I replaced my fresh air vent seals, then cleaned and lubed my wiper linkage. My fresh air cables were stuck and I finally freed those up.
I had the car apart for this for almost a month due to being busy with the stupid tractor. I think it was having an effect on my mood. When I finally got everything together enough where I could drive it, I felt so much better. I ran errands all weekend just so I could drive it.
I don't recommend going more than a week without driving your VW, it's not good for your mental health. I'm not a doctor, but I'm sure 4 out of 5 of them would probably agree with me.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm back to working on the car. I had been driving it whenever I had a chance, but I started noticing some water in the floor after a hard rain. I've driven it in the rain before and never noticed anything more than a little drip from around the fresh air boxes. So, not long ago, I replaced those seals. Now it leaks more. So, I did some testing, and it looks like I have several other leaky areas. The windshield seal is peeling up around the glass, so water is coming in at the corners. My door seals are shot, so water comes in around those. The vent windows leak pretty bad, and the inner and outer scrapers are toast. In a light rain, they probably don't leak much, but it must be monsoon season here lately. I was ready to fix the hole in my pan, but i don't want to put in new metal while it is still leaking.

This will probably seem unrelated, but I was in the middle of lowering the rear of the car to make it sit even, when I decided to take off a fender to get more room to work. I fought the drivers side with the fender on, and it is much easier to get to things with it off. I talked myself into it because I had all new fender beading and mine was starting to work itself out of the gap. I thought there might be a chance that too much water was getting in there and causing a leak, so I pulled one fender off to check.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It was full of dirt dauber nests and rusty spots where the seam sealer has cracked or fallen out.

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Otherwise, that side doesn't look so bad. Some of the paint is even shiny.
It really makes me want to paint it back the original Savannah Beige. I think I will eventually.

After that, I pulled the driver fender off and found a little more rust:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The seals that go around the air ducts were shot. They weren't doing a thing. I also noticed that a bunch of water poured out of the fender just behind the door when I took out the two bottom screws. Apparently the drain hole was clogged. The car had been in the garage for at least a week and it still had half a gallon of water in that spot. Even if it isn't getting into the car, that's not good. This side had the same rust where the seam sealer was.

Here's my plan for fixing that: First, I'll scrape out all the old sealer. It pretty much falls out when you touch it. Next, I will media blast those areas to get rid of most of the rust. Then, it'll get a couple coats of Masterseries silver in those seams. After that, I apply new seam sealer.

How does that sound? I am starting to feel the urge to just tear the car apart, but I can't have this thing immobile for years while I nitpick every detail. I'm trying to just fix things as I find them so I can keep it close to a driveable car.

Here's the other problem. I knew I had some burnt wires in the main harness. Namely the oil light wire. To fix it, someone had just run a new wire inside the car. Everything else worked ok, and both ends of the harness only showed one or two bad wires. I wanted to run a new wire inside the fender like it's supposed to be, and call it done. Well, I started inspecting that harness and found this:

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Every wire was melted and had bare spots showing, even the big red one from the generator. All of my lights worked and it ran fine. I can't believe none of them touched. I feel like the thing could have burned to the ground at any time.
So, don't assume any electrical problems are small. Inspect everything and make sure it's safe.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:40 am    Post subject: Foam blocks in quarter panels and torsion bars Reply with quote

I have a couple of questions that I can't find a definitive answer to.

The first one is about the anti-roll/upper torsion bar in the front end. I know that Squarebacks have larger rear bars, and supposedly have larger front torsions, but I have seen it mentioned that later model cars have a larger upper bar to give more anti-roll. Is this true? I found several posts about it, but nothing specific. I'd love to know if someone has actual measurements and a year range.

My other question is about the little foam blocks that sit at each end of the air duct seal inside the quarter panels, as indicated here:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Mine were still there, but turned to dust as soon as I touched them. Do you guys just make something to replace them? Do you leave them out? I can't find anyone who sells them, so I figure I'd have to make them anyway.

I know a lot of folks only drive their cars on nice days or in areas where it never rains, but i want to be able to drive this thing anytime or anywhere. I figure they are there for a reason, just curious if anyone had more info on them.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject: Filler piece between front bumper and apron Reply with quote

I just thought of another question. What color was the filler piece between the front bumper and the apron painted originally? I assume body color, but I also thought black to make it less noticeable.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL Reply with quote

Here is a supplier for the foam pieces under the fenders. http://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/p-1423-self-adhesive-black-sponge-strip.aspx
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL Reply with quote

I do have some foam on hand that would work perfectly. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a specific type of foam like closed cell vs. open, etc.
The stuff I have doesn't have an adhesive backing, but I could just glue it on. Or I could source something locally that had the adhesive.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bkeith85 wrote:
I went with a Crower 61002 cam. It's supposedly a "stock" cam, but it's on a 110 LSA. It's also a dual pattern grind, which I like. I have always had good luck with cams like that.


i'm interested in that cam. any chance you can pontificate a bit on why you chose it (beyond dual pattern) and how it has performed for you? things like it's power band, mileage, idle speed, operating temp? anything else you can think of. i hated to see that crower didn't get back to you on your installation issue. no reply to an email.

i realize that if you haven't got the carbs tuned to your liking that discussing the actual running of the engine may be pointless. it's been a while since your last posting. maybe you've gone all type IV on us type I guys?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL Reply with quote

Yes, it has been quite awhile since I was on here. I had some major issues with the house, so I had to fix all of that stuff first. I did actually work on the car some over the last couple of days and it was nice to make some progress.

To costonjs, I'm sure you've decided on a cam by now, but in case anyone else is interested in how it performs:

I really like it. It pulls strong all the way up to where I am comfortable shifting, which is around 5000, maybe 5500 rpm. This is the first VW I have driven regularly though, so I have nothing to compare it to. But being used to a 5.0 Mustang and my 300hp pickup, I was worried that I wouldn't be satisfied with it. I was very surprised that it ran so good. I wish I had some dyno numbers or some drag strip times, but I don't. I just know that I can leave from a light quicker than the other cars, and I'm happy with that.



I didn't really want a big cam because I had no experience with them in a VW and I wanted to stay conservative for a daily driver. I come from the V8 world, so all of the cams people would recommend seemed huge to me. Also, you can't trust what some yahoo in cyberspace tells you about a cam or anything engine related.

Sometimes you find wild variations in cam suggestions, even from the manufacturers themselves. Of course, this is more common with something like a chevy 350, when one company might have 15 cams that are only a smidge different from the next one.

If I can find some understanding about the why and how behind things, I feel I can make better decisions. I have a few books by a guy named David Vizard. He writes for several automotive magazines and covers a lot of engine theory in his books. In one of his books, "How to Build Horsepower", he explains how he uses math to determine what components to use in an engine. Instead of just going with what everyone else suggests, he tells you how to make decisions based on your specific combination. It is easy to follow and I recommend it highly.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks who may not agree with what he talks about, but at least I now have a repeatable method I can use to decide on cams, valve sizes, exhaust, etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL Reply with quote

Here's an update of my progress.

I still have the rusted out rear cargo area. I made a patch panel for it that includes all of the factory stampings, but it is still pretty rough. I hope to have it smoothed out more before I try to weld it in. I still need to make pieces for the areas on each side of the engine cover and the strip at the back. I'm thinking it may be easier to work on this if I remove the rear apron. I also need to work some dents out of the apron, so I have another reason to do it even thought I'd much rather not take it off. I'm searching now for any info I can find, but if anyone has any good pictures of apron removal, let me know. I need to be able to get it off and back on again.

Over the last couple days, I fixed my lean. The car sat lower on the drivers side, so when I lowered it previously, I tried to fix some of that. Well, it still leaned and I put up with it. Since I pulled all the fenders off to replace the beading, I just left it that way since it would be easier to adjust the front and rear with no fenders.

Well, now it sits level and looks good. I don't want to put the rear quarters on until I do the cargo floor in case the welds burn through the paint, so those have to stay off. But, I can now move forward with the front end and put it all back together. I have new beading and trunk seal from ISP and a whole bunch of new grommets for the wiring.

Once I fix the cargo floor, I can fix the hole in my passenger floor. When that is cleaned up, I can do a new headliner and replace the leaking windshield seal that caused me to tear it apart in the first place.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing your experiences...I haven't read through all 6 pages yet (just started)...but I am digging all the great info and ingenuity! Giving me some ideas for when I have free time to tinker on my mini-lathe.

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL Reply with quote

bkeith85 wrote:
To costonjs, I'm sure you've decided on a cam by now
nope. project is on indefinite hold.
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DQDan
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Joined: October 24, 2016
Posts: 351
Location: Cleveland OH
DQDan is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuild 1968 Squareback in one year? = FAIL Reply with quote

Thanks much for sharing. I am walking down a very similar path and your posts are illuminating!
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