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Possible Breather tower failure? How to diagnose?
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the craigness
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:30 am    Post subject: Possible Breather tower failure? How to diagnose? Reply with quote

I am chasing a misfire and rough idle for months now. For those of you helping I thank you immensely. I might have another issue that could be contributing to my bad idle and low power problem.

1984 1.9 WBX Digijet:

My breather tower might not be doing it's job. If the van is running (hot or cold) and I remove the oil cap, the engine will sputter and die.

there is oil traces and a film inside the S-boot and some droplets.

The hose to the tower is fine and clamped at both ends.

There is no white milky residue anywhere.

The tower is not clogged but it seems allows free flowing air in both directions

The engine starts on the key most of the time. Takes a second or two of pedal and then has a rock steady idle of about 870-920 rpm. Engine was timed via rpm only with the stabilizer disconnected. Best I can do right now but no matter what I do with the dizzy (advance or retard) the engine always has a misfire and the exhaust pipe shakes and sputters. Van does get to about 60mph but doesn't have any extra power or any climbing ability relative to over the summer.

It has: a new gas tank, new bosch pump, fuel filter. Temp 2, all new injector plugs, all spark plugs are the same color (no deposits, slight brownish tint, no oil stains) all plug wires have very close ohm readings from the graphite peg in the cap to the ends. Changing the idle module, coil or AFM have no effect on the problem as I have spares of all of them. Engine has a slight VW tick but nothing crazy. oil is clean. I'm not loosing anti freeze, not leaking oil. O2 harness was cut back and repaired. O2 sensor is 5 months old. All runners have been clamped. I hear a sucking hiss from the top of the manifold but 2 cans of carb cleaner dont reveal anything. It could be just the internal sound but i'm not sure how loud the hiss should be as normal. AKA I can't find any vacuum leaks. And whatever leaks are there have been there since I got this van over last spring and the motor was running great in August's trip to main (20 mpg steady, up to 75mph on the flats fully loaded westy) Cat and muffler are 5 month old.

Fuel pressure is 37 (+/-2psi) at the T engine idling and vacuum connected to regulator. 47psi regulator vacuum disconnected and plugged. I haven't checked the vacuum under load but it feels like fuel starvation.

The power loss gets wore after about 15-20 minutes of driving. Almost like clockwork. Then partially returns about 10 minutes after that. Not fully but then it comes and goes almost like an electrical short but there are none. None that I can find.

Yesterday something strange happened;

the van would die at idle when cold at red lights. It would easily restart but then die until it was warmed up for 5 more minutes. Then ran ok.

When the van was fully warm and I was driving around for 2 hours, I made a right run and the van bucked badly. Like the ignition or fuel got cut off, then came back. Thats never happened before.

OK, I know thats a lot but if someone is a super expert, he might be able to tell what might be going on from the information I supplied.

OH BTW, all ohm readings are in spec at the ECU plug.

thanks a super ton. I am near my wits end.
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW - The diaphragm in my 84 has been missing for an unknown number of years. I never did anything about it as they were NLA back then.

I never was able to attribute any running problems to that omission - they always proved to be something else. Anyway, still missing that bit and the engine runs fine.

I did add a 5.5mm restriction in the hose to the S-Boot as later vans got this as part of the heating element gadget that was added there. This seemed to help with an idle issue I was having.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
I did add a 5.5mm restriction in the hose to the S-Boot as later vans got this as part of the heating element gadget that was added there. This seemed to help with an idle issue I was having.


This should help as it will keep the pulses in the crankcase from messing with the AFM. I would recommend finding and installing a heater as the heater will keep the orifice from freezing shut in cold weather. Maybe where you are at in Arizona this would never be a problem though.

To the OP, I added the capacitor to the AFM on my 83 1/2 and that noticeably smooths out the idle.

Also my experimenting with the breather towers years ago showed no improvement when a new tower was installed, I could not tell the difference between the obviously bad tower and the new one in the way the engine ran.

You should go through all the pins terminals in the various FI plugs and make sure none of the terminals have push back out of the plugs and are thus making poor or intermittent contact.

Make sure your aux air regulator is opening and closing properly. A bad digital idle stabilizer (DIS) can also cause odd running so maybe try bypassing yours.

How are you timing your engine? If the retard can is leaking on the distributor and you time the engine by the book you will be 12° too far retarded. Always best to time your engine at full mechanical advance, ~30° at 3500+ rpms, hoses off and plugged.
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the craigness
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you describe timing at full mechanical advance? I'm curious.

Also, It's a real single cylinder miss. However, it used to run absolutely fine. All pins check out on all injector plugs. All the plugs are new. I changed the AFM to an extra I had and that increased my power and also have seemed to clear up the low power when warm issue but the miss is still there. Obviously a different issue. Im suspecting even debris in the fuel line or something. The only way to tell would be to pull the injectors and check for spray pattern and/or leak down test.

I'm also getting really poor milage. Like 8 or 9 in the city. No black smoke though.

Thanks!
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wecm31
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Possible Breather tower failure? How to diagnose? Reply with quote

the craigness wrote:


If the van is running (hot or cold) and I remove the oil cap, the engine will sputter and die.




My van has always behaved like this...I thought it normal???
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wecm31
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the 10cent timing method I have used..
Be sure to get a handle on the different pulley notches for the 1.9 vs 2.1

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409221
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the craigness wrote:
Can you describe timing at full mechanical advance? I'm curious.

Also, It's a real single cylinder miss. However, it used to run absolutely fine. All pins check out on all injector plugs. All the plugs are new. I changed the AFM to an extra I had and that increased my power and also have seemed to clear up the low power when warm issue but the miss is still there. Obviously a different issue. Im suspecting even debris in the fuel line or something. The only way to tell would be to pull the injectors and check for spray pattern and/or leak down test.

I'm also getting really poor milage. Like 8 or 9 in the city. No black smoke though.

Thanks!


I would dump a bottle of FI cleaner into the tank and see if that helps things.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all of the WBXs I have seen, I have zero breather tower failures to date.

My collection of towers hasn't shown any reason for alarm either.

Maybe someone with a failed one will post a pic of what went wrong.

TIA.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
With all of the WBXs I have seen, I have zero breather tower failures to date.

My collection of towers hasn't shown any reason for alarm either.

Maybe someone with a failed one will post a pic of what went wrong.

TIA.


This got debated pretty well 5-7 years ago. Every breather tower I could find has a bad diaphragm, but none seemed to give problems. Even the one that failed so that the outlet was mostly blocked didn't give problems where you would have thought that oil would have been coming out any and everywhere on the engine, just the little drain hole seemed to have been enough of an opening to ventilate the engine.

I played around quite a bit with the breather tower when I was trying to control the excessive oil use on the POS engine then in my 83 1/2. I added baffles and tried filling the breather with SS wool, but nothing changed the amount of oil being carried out be the blowby. I didn't think to try adding the orifice at that time, but would still like to do so even though the present engine uses no oil.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wild.
By diaphragm, do you mean the angled portion inside the tower?

I could see that blocking up the flow if positioned right.

I have always been curious to know if the billet towers for AC engines would fit on a 2.1
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
Thanks Wild.
By diaphragm, do you mean the angled portion inside the tower?

I could see that blocking up the flow if positioned right.

I have always been curious to know if the billet towers for AC engines would fit on a 2.1


There is a diaphragm right under the top of the breather that is supposed to regulate the pressure of the gases in the crankcase. Can't remember right now if it is supposed to keep it a bit above ambient or a bit below, the WBXer being one way and the Type 4 being the other. The rubber for the WBXer diaphragm rots and falls apart and thus the breather becomes just a open somewhat baffled tube which does not regulate the crankcase pressure at all.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha, thanks.
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Sixray
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I replaced my breather just recently and it seemed to make a huge difference. When I pulled it off the block, the breather itself and the attached hose running through the sensor thingy and going to the intake boot were completely filled to the brim with car cholesterol, gobs of reeking oil-water paste. I promptly installed a new breather with a good diaphragm and gave the entire breather hose setup a good scrubbing to remove the gunk. My idle seems to have finally smoothed out and my engine runs much quieter, however the whole reason I checked the breather in the first place was that I was replacing my bad alternator and could get to the bolts much easier so that might have been the real culprit of my issues.

I will snag a pic of the inside of the breather in a bit, it might not have been the source of my problems but good lord did it look gnarly. The bad diaphragm was clearly letting moisture into the crankcase and creating condensed oil goop. That certainly can't be good for engine longevity by any means.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixray wrote:
I replaced my breather just recently and it seemed to make a huge difference. When I pulled it off the block, the breather itself and the attached hose running through the sensor thingy and going to the intake boot were completely filled to the brim with car cholesterol, gobs of reeking oil-water paste. I promptly installed a new breather with a good diaphragm and gave the entire breather hose setup a good scrubbing to remove the gunk. My idle seems to have finally smoothed out and my engine runs much quieter, however the whole reason I checked the breather in the first place was that I was replacing my bad alternator and could get to the bolts much easier so that might have been the real culprit of my issues.

I will snag a pic of the inside of the breather in a bit, it might not have been the source of my problems but good lord did it look gnarly. The bad diaphragm was clearly letting moisture into the crankcase and creating condensed oil goop. That certainly can't be good for engine longevity by any means.


This happens to some people, don't know 100% why some and not others. Do you use your rig for a lot of short trips especially in the winter? Are you running dino or synthetic oil? The goo was very common on Type 1 engines and would show up in cooler places in the engine on Type 4 ones. Don't have any good recommendations for you, but to make sure you engine oil gets good and hot every now and then, that your thermostat works correctly, and to maybe try a synthetic oil.
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Sixray
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Sixray wrote:
I replaced my breather just recently and it seemed to make a huge difference. When I pulled it off the block, the breather itself and the attached hose running through the sensor thingy and going to the intake boot were completely filled to the brim with car cholesterol, gobs of reeking oil-water paste. I promptly installed a new breather with a good diaphragm and gave the entire breather hose setup a good scrubbing to remove the gunk. My idle seems to have finally smoothed out and my engine runs much quieter, however the whole reason I checked the breather in the first place was that I was replacing my bad alternator and could get to the bolts much easier so that might have been the real culprit of my issues.

I will snag a pic of the inside of the breather in a bit, it might not have been the source of my problems but good lord did it look gnarly. The bad diaphragm was clearly letting moisture into the crankcase and creating condensed oil goop. That certainly can't be good for engine longevity by any means.


This happens to some people, don't know 100% why some and not others. Do you use your rig for a lot of short trips especially in the winter? Are you running dino or synthetic oil? The goo was very common on Type 1 engines and would show up in cooler places in the engine on Type 4 ones. Don't have any good recommendations for you, but to make sure you engine oil gets good and hot every now and then, that your thermostat works correctly, and to maybe try a synthetic oil.


I use Brad Penn partial synthetic, not sure what was in it in the past though. When I first got the van I couldn't help myself but drive it everywhere, even when it started getting cold. Also I just replaced the thermostat last weekend because it wasn't warming up too well, so I think you might have nailed it dead on!
as promised, check out the grossness.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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the craigness
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: DISCOVERY! Reply with quote

OK, BIG discovery. I disconnected the O2 sensor and timed the engine by rpm. I closed the idle screw all the way in then backed it out 1 turn. I closed the AFM screw all the way in and backed it out 2 turns. I turned the dizzy until the RPM was at 875-900 and left it there. Van runs friggen mint. No shaking muffler, nothing. It's like a V6 now. Actually sounds better than most 4-cyl engines like this I have heard to date. I know the problem is in the O2 and not the timing or air screw/idle screw. So the question is why? It could be the valves are out of adjustment or a leaking injector / vacuum leak in 1 cylinder.

Any experts out there?
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mcswain2332
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it's impossible to accurately answer this question without some fancy shop tools, but I'll ask it anyway.

Does the OP's description of his AFM allen screw position (all the way in, back 2 turns) jive with others experience? At least in the ball park?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Possible Breather tower failure? How to diagnose? Reply with quote

I replaced the breather tower on my 1985 1.9 liter Westfalia hoping it would help with my cold idle problem. I just had to know what was going on inside so I cut it apart. I won't pretend to know how the breather tower works, but the last photo of the rubber seal shows that it couldn't have been working very well with the seal split up like that.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


By the way, on page 13.26 of Bentley, it shows that the torque for the breather tower nuts should be 8 Nm (69 INCH lb).
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transanalog
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Possible Breather tower failure? How to diagnose? Reply with quote

$.02

I've fixed numerous running/missing issues by sending off my injectors to get professionally cleaned/refurbished. I used Mr Injector but there are others. I also went through a slew of "fixes" and replacement parts to iron out the low power/missing issue. Refurbishing the injectors completely solved the problems.
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