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Joey
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Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 5366
Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:21 am Post subject: Rear KYB-KG5530 shocks too short |
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I just tried to install some KYB-KG5530 shocks on my '74 bus but they are too short. With the suspension fully extended (bus on jack stands) and the top mount of the shock fastened to the bus the shock doesn't reach the bottom mount. It's about 1/2 too short. Has anyone else have this problem with these shocks?
The KYB-KG5530 shock fully extended is 22.5 inches.
The part # on the shock is 554060 TF13 K
EDIT: Found two other people with the same problem...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=511613&highlight=rear+shock+short
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477102&start=0
...but no real solution.
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Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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old DKP driver
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Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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KYB rear shocks have been this way forever I think.
I installed them on my 72 bus back in the mid 1980's and had my bus on a hoist. ended up using a 2x4 on a jack to install the lower bolts.
I really didn't like this but, realized that unless the rear wheels left the ground the overall travel would never be realized.
I now wonder if anyone of the others here with this same scenario contacted KYB or a kyb dealer for the reasoning of this fitment.
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Joey
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Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 5366
Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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So... after receiving a very informative email from a Samba reader and doing some research here's the reason these shocks don't fit:
KG-5530s are only for '68-'71 type 2s.
When VW started to drop in the Type 4 engine in '72 they altered the center-to-center distance on the shock bolts, by oh, I don't know... about three quarters of an inch or so... JUST about what the KYB "shorties" are coming up short on. The change in the center-to-center distance on the shock bolts is the result of the rear torsion tube being moved when they changed the frame design to fit the wider type 4 engine.
Notice in this thread, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=511613, that the OP metoooo has a '73 DC and ccpalmer who didn't have a problem installing the same shocks has a '71 bus.
I'm sure there are lots of people on here with the KG-5530s on their late bus and it's probably okay doing city and highway driving. Going off-road will probably be a problem with them being over extended.
KYB 344082 shocks will fit the rear of '72-79 bays. They are Excel-2 (GR-2) shocks, not Gas A Just shocks. Fully extended they are 23.03", compressed they are 13.9" and have a stroke of 9.13". A stock OE shock fully extended is 22.95". The metal sleeve in the bushings on the 344082 shocks are too long so longer bolts will be needed... or, just shorten the bushings.
Remember - when installing shocks if you have to lift the suspension to get the shock on then the shock is too short!. Of course, if you install them with the bus on the ground then you won't notice them being too short until it's too late...
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Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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Kirk
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Joined: December 05, 2003
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Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well hells bells, thats informative and troubling. Ive never seen a vendor separate them, for example bus depot:
http://www.busdepot.com/kg5530
And guess who just got a set. 
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. Bus Depot (on the Koni shock product pages) lists the valving as being different for the heavier end of the late bus, but nothing about the length.
Ratwell lists the Koni differences for comparison:
68-71: 561mm
72-79:581mm
1/2 an inch is really close to 20mm.
The fiche for a '79 bus lists Konis as optional equipment, so we know VW trusted these numbers.
Ratwell also measured a factory Boge/F&S set and found the rears were 590mm.
I think this is a case of aftermarket companies not giving it 100% in their product catalogue. Adding 68-71 to a "fits" description is easier and cheaper than actually making the correct part. But it benefits nobody in the long run.
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westcoastmarek
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Joined: September 13, 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Interesting. Bus Depot (on the Koni shock product pages) lists the valving as being different for the heavier end of the late bus, but nothing about the length.
Ratwell lists the Koni differences for comparison:
68-71: 561mm
72-79:581mm
1/2 an inch is really close to 20mm. 20mm is almost 13/16th...
The fiche for a '79 bus lists Konis as optional equipment, so we know VW trusted these numbers.
Ratwell also measured a factory Boge/F&S set and found the rears were 590mm.
I think this is a case of aftermarket companies not giving it 100% in their product catalogue. Adding 68-71 to a "fits" description is easier and cheaper than actually making the correct part. But it benefits nobody in the long run. |
fixed it... 
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airschooled
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| westcoastmarek wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Ratwell lists the Koni differences for comparison:
68-71: 561mm
72-79:581mm
1/2 an inch is really close to 20mm. 20mm is almost 13/16th...
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fixed it... |
I had to err on the side of politeness 
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VWCOOL
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Joey, your situation is not really a "problem" as many vehicles' (VWs and others) droop suspension travel is ultimately limited by the damper. It means the damper must be fitted with the vehicle's weight on its wheels or - more easily - with a floor jack lifting the control arm (or axle) a little.
1/2 inch is less than 13mm.. the width of your pointy finger and not much more then the width of the rubber bushes in the dampers' ends |
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Joey
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Joined: August 12, 2005
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Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:47 am Post subject: |
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The suspension being limited by the shock is not only hard on the shock but hard on the shock bolts and mounts. I sometimes go camping on old logging roads which can get pretty rough and I don't think the shocks will handle being constantly over extended.
I think I'll try to fab up some extenders like these:
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Joey
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Bala
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Joined: December 04, 2003
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Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: |
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I was just about to order shocks, so good timing!
Also the KYB 344082s are less expensive ($24ea on Amazon).
Anyone out there have real world experience with these shocks?
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VWCOOL
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Joey wrote: |
The suspension being limited by the shock is not only hard on the shock but hard on the shock bolts and mounts. I sometimes go camping on old logging roads which can get pretty rough and I don't think the shocks will handle being constantly over extended.
I think I'll try to fab up some extenders like these:
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Joey, keep in mind the damper has already slowed-down the trailing arm/suspension movement and absorbed all that horrible shock load by the time the suspension has reached the limit of droop travel.
Even doing 70MPH over rough terrain, Ken Block style, the standard suspension will do no more than lightly "kiss" the dampers' limit of travel when you are airborne
Hope this helps |
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Joey
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Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Shocks on applications that get fully extended like trucks with leaf springs or coil springs have internal stops. The KG5530 do not have internal stops... check KYBs website: http://www.kyb.com/knowledge-center/shock-tech-for-pros/dimensions/ ...so when the shock fully extends it's metal to metal contact with no cushioning. If they had the internal stop I wouldn't be too worried about it. The 344082s have the internal stops.
BTW... the 344082s are used on '85-'95 Chevy Astro vans.
Here's my 1st attempt at making some extenders. They are made from 1/8" square tubing:
Not sure if the top bushing will be beefy enough and I would like the bottom of the shock a bit further away from the inside of the mount due to the bushing compressing - it's currently only about 1/8" away.
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Joey
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airschooled
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Regardless of the shock's internal stop, you DO NOT WANT to rip out your upper shock mounting threads. You don't even want to put that kind of stress on the components. Your trailing arm should contact here before your shock fully extends.
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Wasted youth
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Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Weird. About a year or so ago, I bought a pair of KYB Gas-a-just KG5530 for the rear and a pair of KG4521's for my front on my 1973 bus. I had absolutely no mounting issues. When I parked my 1973, I moved the entire set over to the 1977 bus, which is now my daily driver. Rides smooth, no issues, didn't have to pull the rears down to meet the anchor.
I note the installation instructions I saved show KG5530 (rear) extends to 22.2 inches.
I bought them through my FLAPS.
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Amskeptic
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
| Joey, your situation is not really a "problem" as many vehicles' (VWs and others) droop suspension travel is ultimately limited by the damper. |
It is a problem for our VWs. Maybe MacPherson coil spring struts have built-in snubbers yes, but not our air-cooled VWs with limit stops bracketing the spring plates and double-acting tube shocks that should never be hyper-extended.
Colin
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VWCOOL
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
| Joey, your situation is not really a "problem" as many vehicles' (VWs and others) droop suspension travel is ultimately limited by the damper. |
It is a problem for our VWs. Maybe MacPherson coil spring struts have built-in snubbers yes, but not our air-cooled VWs with limit stops bracketing the spring plates and double-acting tube shocks that should never be hyper-extended.
Colin |
If the damper did not control the droop rate of the suspension it would be a problem.. but it does, so it's not.
The suspension smacking the chassis casting under the spring-plate is more of a problem.. which is why VW uses the damper to keep it clear of the casting at full travel
Hoist a Nissan or Toyota 4X4s and it's the dampers that will be holding the rear axle when the wheels come off the ground.
Changing the damper stroke dimension simply throws the problem to compression.. now the damper is more likely to be damaged at full compression.. tat scenario is far more likely on a street car than full extension
But yeah it would be nice if the KYBs had internal bump-stops |
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Amskeptic
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
If the damper did not control the droop rate of the suspension it would be a problem.. but it does, so it's not.
The suspension smacking the chassis casting under the spring-plate is more of a problem.. which is why VW uses the damper to keep it clear of the casting at full travel
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A) Worn shocks do not control "droop rate" worth a damn.
B) I have never heard of a spring plate contacting the bottom of the stop as ever being a problem, much less more of a problem than tearing up your shock absorbers . . . "which is why VW uses the damper to keep it clear of the casting" is simply not true.
... but I am willing to consider any additional published cites you might have. Note that all reputable repair manuals mention that the rear shocks for the 1968-1971 buses cannot be used on the later buses.
The reason is that they do not extend sufficiently.
Colin
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a picture of how mine looks as installed on my 1977 bus, parked level in my driveway:
I measured 20" as installed from centerline of each top and bottom anchor bolt, with the installation instructions showing 22.2 inches extended length and I measured 1/2" gap where the trailing arm rests above the bottom stop as shown in the picture asiab3 posted above.
And, hey...what's goin' on with that CV boot? Guess I'll add some clamps like I always have before! Didn't clamp them this time based on so many opinions not to.  |
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Joey
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Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
| which is why VW uses the damper to keep it clear of the casting at full travel |
The shocks I removed from the bus were the F&S Originals. When I removed the bottom bolt the shock fell down past the bolt mounting hole. Those shock are now on my '79 panel. When I jack up the rear of my '79 panel the spring plate rests on the torsion tube casting. My Beetles are the same - the spring plate rests on the torsion tube casting when jacked up. I don't recall ever having to lift the suspension to install any shock, front or rear, on any VW I've worked on. I would think the spring plate and torsion tube casting are way stronger than the shock bolts, rear top shock mount and shock.
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Joey
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Joey
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
Here is a picture of how mine looks as installed on my 1977 bus, parked level in my driveway:
I measured 20" as installed from centerline of each top and bottom anchor bolt, with the installation instructions showing 22.2 inches extended length and I measured 1/2" gap where the trailing arm rests above the bottom stop as shown in the picture asiab3 posted above. |
I don't see what this proves. 
Try this - with the bus on the ground remove the bottom shock bolt. Jack up the bus until the spring plate is resting on the torsion tube casting. Can you re-install the bottom shock bolt?
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Joey
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