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furrylittleotter
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Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:35 am Post subject: Diesel viability |
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I have read so many positive stories on here concerning diesel conversions even I have considered a swap.
Now that countries like France are seriously considering some form a Diesel ban (Pollution?) and Diesel fuel is now twice the price of Petrol in the states I wonder if some of the die hards have re-thought their diesel choice.
I know the petrol price just happened so it might take a few more road trips for the tide to turn, but I see no $/mile advantage currently.
Neil2 |
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BavarianWrench
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Joined: January 18, 2004
Posts: 1045
Location: Oceans Edge
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Why you have to scare me like that. I get 28 mpg out of the diesel Syncro. I am a fan.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_w.htm
Diesel has not doubled gas in my neighborhood.
The French are going for it. Looks like there will be a lot of Subaru diesel engines available soon.
"The move could rankle the roughly 80 percent of French drivers who own diesel-fueled cars, but it's the latest attempt to lower pollution levels in France. A proposed plan earlier this summer could cover much of Paris with an 19-mile-per-hour speed limit (30 km/h). There was also a very brief attempt to limit cars from entering the capital by their license plate number."
Crazy.
Last edited by BavarianWrench on Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:53 am; edited 3 times in total |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Fuel economy is only one of the reasons to consider repowering with diesel and actually is the last reason I would. The power and torque is extremely good compared to a similar displacement gas engine. They are very low maintenance compared to a gas engine. They are very dependable compared to a gas engine. You can brew your own fuel. That said, diesel power is not for everybody.
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Jon_slider
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Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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since regular today costs 2.63, and diesel costs 3.33, to fuel my 5 cyl Tdi with 140hp, 213 ft lbs, which gets 23mpg Im paying a 27% premium for diesel. That would be same cost as if I drove a gas vehicle that got 17mpg. In terms of drivebillity on highway a 1.8t with 180 hp, and 172 ft lbs, would have the advantage imo.
Current pricing also means that a diesel that is getting 30 mpg, is paying the same fuel cost per mile as a gas motor that gets 22mpg
IMO, Fuel economy is the primary reason to go Diesel, and at current prices that is not a motivator. The horsepower is too low in a diesel, making it poor at acceleration on highway. The torque is too high, making it destructive to the transaxle.
Diesels make more noise, and vibrate more than a gas engine. And because of the narrow power band, a Diesel really needs a 5 speed where a gas motor is fine with the 4 speed.
Regearing a 4 speed wider, to suit the diesel power band, results in compromises that create shift gaps that are wider than stock. This makes it difficult to find the right gear in some situations, such as uphill at 50-55mph. And requires running higher than stock RPM between shifts.
A diesel also does not like to run cold and experiences excess wear until warmed up, it wants to get hot and run for long periods. A Diesel is not ideal for short trips, running errands around town, parking for an hour, then driving 5-10 miles, stopping again for a while,… as a daily driver gas vehicle would be.
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Last edited by Jon_slider on Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16505
Location: Brookeville, MD
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hans j
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Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 2715
Location: Salt Lake City UT
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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The good news is, I can drive through France without needing to refill my tank 
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bluefirefly
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Joined: March 16, 2011
Posts: 438
Location: Calgary, Ab
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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There is no ban yet in France and if, I mean IF, it will be for the capitale only!
Of course, for a fee you'll be able to drive in Paris with a diesel, so lets call it a tax instead!
BTW, it is already in place on other big city in Europe....
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86 Syncro Tintop G60
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Brandon314159
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Joined: September 02, 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon_slider wrote: |
| . The horsepower is too low in a diesel, making it poor at acceleration on highway. The torque is too high, making it destructive to the transaxle.. |
I hope this is a joke 
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1974 Riviera "Zesty!"
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DAIZEE
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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I'm all for diesel.More economical than gas regardless the price, much safer fuel to be carrying a tankful of, I can cruise at 0mph/kph in stop and go traffic even with a 4 gear manual, and I have more than enough power to accelerate up and chances are pretty good I wouldn't get a ticket as no way my vehicle looks like it can speed.
I'm all for diesel. The NUMBER ONE trick is getting an excellent diesel conversion installation. Mr. Diesel knew what he was doing and trust me it's rare for a 'common joe' to outdo Mr. Diesel. IMHO
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'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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Jeff's Old Volks Home
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Joined: December 19, 2011
Posts: 819
Location: Chester Basin, Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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In Canada, Diesel fuel is only a smidgen more expensive than gas. $1.11 per litre on the east coast, gas is $.98 ish. I've done more than 60 diesel conversions and 3 more to do in the new year. To me it's a reliability issue. No more 20-30 year old any thing. I install new everything in the engine room, and drive it like I want it to last. I don't have any troubles, unless I'm pushing the performance envelope. I ran my last monster diesel with more than 30psi boost, and regular EGTs in the 1500f range, I cooked some per-combustion chambers, and I'm sure I took some life from the tranny, but it sure was fun! Plus the flies were never a problem behind me. 
I've since sent the pump back to Giles, he de-tuned it, I should have listened to him in the first place, and turned my boost down on my VNT17/22 to 15psi max. Very nice. Just the right amount, feels like a 2.5 Subaru on the flat and merging except will I will pull away from it on the hills.
A good working AAZ or mTDi will 'last' with out the electronic issues. eTDi are great too, very tunable, and in the last few years hydraulic mounts have drastically reduced and NHV issues...
Diesel still gets my vote. Every time. A personal thing that's all. I like all vanagons, regardless how their powered.
Jeff
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2004 Jetta TDi Wagon
2002 Smyth Ute TDi
1990 Vanagon weekender Syncro AAZ
1987 Syncro Doka AAZ...soon to be TDI
2014 DL650ABS Xpedition
1986 Weekender Syncro (Under construction)
1987 Westfalia (Under construction)
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furrylittleotter
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Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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geo_tonz
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Joined: August 01, 2012
Posts: 1472
Location: Courtenay, BC, CANADA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Decided to do a little reading on the subject as I've always had an opinion, but haven't really looked at the numbers...
I always assumed Diesel was easier to make (less refined) so it was the lower polluter from the refining stand point but I was surprised to read this:
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Making a gallon of diesel fuel requires 25% more oil and emits 17% more heat-trapping greenhouse gases than gasoline reformulated with MTBE. Similarly, diesel requires 17% more oil and emits 18% more heat-trapping gases than gasoline reformulated with ethanol. This means that diesel fuel's advantages from its higher per-gallon energy content and better performance on greenhouse gases are partially offset by the impact of diesel's fuel-production process.
Read more at https://blog.gasbuddy.com/posts/Diesel-vs-gasoline...OUlVrZk.99 |
I guess it's application needs to be 25% more efficient than the equivalent gas engine in order to be the same environmentally. Not an unreasonable number to achieve but I had always assumed switching to diesel was a plus in the green category regardless. For the pocket book that's pretty close to the break-even number too. Around here diesel is 20% more than regular today according to gasbuddy.
So, in my mind unless it's an uber-efficient diesel the performance is the main reason to go for a diesel conversion, and you'd have to look at how much more than 20% more efficient than gas you'd likely get, then compare that to the cost of install to see if it's financially worth it...then look at how much more than 25% more efficient than gas it might be to see how much "greener" you might end up.
If you're between 20 and 25% more efficient than gas I guess you just have to know that you are consuming more oil than a gas engine, though you're pocket book might be slightly more full (ignoring the gaping hole the conversion left).
Using 18mpg as a reasonable optimal WBX average, you'd need to see 22mpg out of a diesel to break even financially and 23mpg to break even environmentally using the numbers mentioned above. Jon Slider's numbers look pretty much on the button there. No better or worse than gas, aside from the obvious performance gain and the cost to convert.
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 "Ron Burgundy": 1991 Vanagon Multivan (Weekender) 2.1L Auto - Driver/Camper
Last edited by geo_tonz on Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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tarandusVDub
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Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting analysis.
And that's all before the price of gas goes back up. Which it will.
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1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
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Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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furrylittleotter
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Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| geo_tonz wrote: |
| aside from the obvious performance gain . |
I guess i'm not smart enough to see which engine has the "Obvious" performance gain. Which one are you referring to?
Also, from what little I read, diesels almost always weigh more, that will offset any performance gain (real or imagined), as well as wear and tear on everything and they usually take pricier crankcase oil in greater quantities.
The last quart I bought cost almost $7.
You pointed out a lot of the assumptions I was making. It turns out I was assuming way too much, probably due to the exuberance of the convertors on here.
Neil2 |
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DAIZEE
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7552
Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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oh well, everyone has the right to their own opinion and freedom of choice and speech, etc.. I can remember when diesel was cheaper than gasoline, will those days ever come again? I think not as more mfgers are bringing out diesel models in more numbers now. I have both, van = diesel and car = gas
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'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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geo_tonz
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Joined: August 01, 2012
Posts: 1472
Location: Courtenay, BC, CANADA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
| geo_tonz wrote: |
| aside from the obvious performance gain . |
I guess i'm not smart enough to see which engine has the "Obvious" performance gain. Which one are you referring to?
Also, from what little I read, diesels almost always weigh more, that will offset any performance gain (real or imagined), as well as wear and tear on everything and they usually take pricier crankcase oil in greater quantities.
The last quart I bought cost almost $7.
You pointed out a lot of the assumptions I was making. It turns out I was assuming way too much, probably due to the exuberance of the convertors on here.
Neil2 |
Well I am making the assumption that pretty much doubling the HP and torque from the 2.1L WBX (again, using Jon Slider's numbers above comparing to stock WBX) would yield performance gains. They are heavier motors, but not to the extent that I could see that totally negating the significant power gained. I AM ASSUMING that these numbers have to result in much more jam at the rear end, but perhaps I am mistaken. I don't drive a diesel rig, so yes, I do have to listen to the converters as to results. I choose to interoperate their statements to be reasonably accurate and given that they are frequently backed up with hard data, I choose to take them at face value. Obviously others opinions vary.
Also Castrol Synthetic Edge 5w40 5L is only $1 cheaper than Shell Rotella 15W40 Synthetic diesel oil at a local FLAPS, so the oil is pretty comparable I believe.
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"Ron Burgundy": 1991 Vanagon Multivan (Weekender) 2.1L Auto - Driver/Camper
Last edited by geo_tonz on Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Meh...if ya have to ask, go buy a Hyundai
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4x4BNB
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Joined: January 08, 2012
Posts: 274
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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In the winter I run straight pump diesel....yesterday I tanked it up it was $2.98 a gallon!!! Thanks gasbuddy (app)!!!!
I have three 3 VW tdi's. Two (2003 alh's), I run with 50% biodiesel in the warmer months (which I am lucky enough to get free). I believe 100% bio diesel is zero emissions.
I loves me my diesels...
I suppose it would be different if I didn't get the bio for free...
My 2014 Jetta tdi wagon gets around 45 mpg (manual transmission)
03 Golf tdi gets around 50 mpg (manual transmission)
87 Syncro with an alh engine gets around 25 mpg (6,000 lbs beast) |
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furrylittleotter
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Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| DAIZEE wrote: |
| more mfgers are bringing out diesel models in more numbers now. |
Interesting that you mention this…strangely enough every time the manufacturers mention their intentions concerning diesels the number of models and number of total diesels decrease.
And this was before petrol prices plummeted again.
Just a hunch, but I suspect there will be a net of ZERO more diesels in the next 2 years. |
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tjet 
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Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 4x4BNB wrote: |
In the winter I run straight pump diesel....yesterday I tanked it up it was $2.98 a gallon!!! Thanks gasbuddy (app)!!!!
I have three 3 VW tdi's. Two (2003 alh's), I run with 50% biodiesel in the warmer months (which I am lucky enough to get free). I believe 100% bio diesel is zero emissions.
I loves me my diesels...
I suppose it would be different if I didn't get the bio for free...
My 2014 Jetta tdi wagon gets around 45 mpg (manual transmission)
03 Golf tdi gets around 50 mpg (manual transmission)
87 Syncro with an alh engine gets around 25 mpg (6,000 lbs beast) |
I also have a couple of ALH TDI's - an 02 Jetta & an 03 Golf. My Jetta is just getting ready to roll over 300,000 miles. I'm getting about 47-49 MPG in it now (I installed a Ryan 6-speed conversion). Before my MPG was around 40 with the auto. The really nice thing is the huge RPM drop with the 6-speed. at 80, my RPM is around 2300.
Anyway, diesels are great. The ALH is the most popular for aftermarket & hot-rodding.
I'm going on my 3rd timing belt & 2 intake cleanings. No VAG COM changes. Really great little diesels IMO. The best thing?. The exhaust smells good with the OEM cat in place
I highly recommend anything with an ALH. |
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