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dobryan
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Stuartzickefoose
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Got the engine back together...
Back to back with Dustin’s engine:
And Jamie telling him how to do it...
Got it to this point:
(Note freestanding height made it just 2” shy of rolling the van right over the engine. Love this height!)
Installed it only to find the mustache bar on backwards. At 11:45 pm.
Needless to say I drove my Mk5 tdi Jetta to Portland 
Gonna hit it hard Sunday evening/Monday morning. Looks like I’ll get mere hours to test it out then haul butt to California for the race!
Speaking of height and CV angle stuff...looks like I have the easiest setup ever to drop the engine height. The automatic transmission only has a front mount, no overhead mount, by the bell housing. This means I simply need a inch spacer and longer bolts and nuts for the mustache bar and I can lower the engine by an inch or two with minimal effort to reduce CV angle.
It’s so simple I may actually get it done!
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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Stuartzickefoose
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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So engine is in...mustache bar facing the right way. 4 new engine mounts.
Soaked my ECU in the pressure wash. Oops. Dried it out and it ran, just fine. Test drive to the store, and it “ran out of gas” at the stop light. Or at least, it acted like it. I replaced the entire ECU and harness, double relay, resistor block, all connectors tight. Still won’t fire back up. Fueled up, test ran the pump, it works (no psi check numbers sorry) pinched the return line to see if regulator was bad. No change. Fires off on staring fluid, timing never changed since Mexico for sure. Compression is good, had plenty of power till it died. Spark is good. valve adjust checked, at 1 turn past zero lash, perfectly fine.
Swapped a spare ECU and harness in, and 3 afm boxes, all work fine but nothing starts engine.
Melted the blue wire from the double relay to the starter (had prior heat damage, but I noticed it got hot while cranking for oil pressure) what does the blue wire do?
Any suggestions? I am nearly stumped. Unless all 4 injectors failed at EXACTLY the same time, the regulator is bad and I didn’t test properly, or the pump is pushing less then the facotry 35psi or so, I missed something. Thoughts?
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
So engine is in...mustache bar facing the right way. 4 new engine mounts.
Soaked my ECU in the pressure wash. Oops. Dried it out and it ran, just fine. Test drive to the store, and it “ran out of gas” at the stop light. Or at least, it acted like it. I replaced the entire ECU and harness, double relay, resistor block, all connectors tight. Still won’t fire back up. Fueled up, test ran the pump, it works (no psi check numbers sorry) pinched the return line to see if regulator was bad. No change. Fires off on staring fluid, timing never changed since Mexico for sure. Compression is good, had plenty of power till it died. Spark is good. valve adjust checked, at 1 turn past zero lash, perfectly fine.
Swapped a spare ECU and harness in, and 3 afm boxes, all work fine but nothing starts engine.
Melted the blue wire from the double relay to the starter (had prior heat damage, but I noticed it got hot while cranking for oil pressure) what does the blue wire do?
Any suggestions? I am nearly stumped. Unless all 4 injectors failed at EXACTLY the same time, the regulator is bad and I didn’t test properly, or the pump is pushing less then the facotry 35psi or so, I missed something. Thoughts? |
What terminal number on the starter did the blue wire go to?
Also- if there's a brown wire that grounds at one of the double relay bolts replace the eyelet on it. that may be bay only, though.
You got your Vanagon Bentley? If so, there's a procedure for checking all FI components through the harness at the ECU plug.
Are you positively certain your second ECU is good?
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Resistor block functioning?, voltage at each injector plug?(all 4 disconnected for testing), power to resistors?
Ground star under plenum corroded or loose, or maybe missed?
The "blue" wire is confusing, I've seen yellow and stripey red used for the crank signal to the DR, what terminal on the DR does it connect to?, maybe you pinched something and the melting indicates no more power to the FI system?
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Stuartzickefoose
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Tested ECU, double relay and resistor block on Dustin’s engine.
Grounds clean and tight, and fresh pressure wash (I think I caused the issue doing it) cleaned the block and every bolt/but I could including the grounds under plenum. Harness was clean, tight, flexible (not plastic and cracking)
I think I snapped a pic...
Also have two of everything, harness, ECU, resistor block and all injectors and regulator etc. got two full spare engines I’ve been snagging parts from. The only issue is the original setup had a different ECU then the spare pair, so I had to swap it all to test the ECU theory.
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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Stuartzickefoose
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Unfortunately I missed snapping a direct pic and I’m en route to Cali riding shotgun. The red batch of wires runs to the left side of the double relay and basically goes right to the starter, I’ll see if Dustin can snap a pic for me while he’s still home.
The blue wire appears to be the trigger for the starter as unplugged or plug into the wrong terminal, the starter doesn’t kick with the key. This has a hot start relay (which is coming out when I replace the battery cable) but this particular blue wire is a stock VW wire, not part of the hot start setup. Part of the body harness.
Edit: found this previously posted pic, prior to wire melting on me during cranking.
The setup I have in that last pic is the original setup, now it has what would match a 78 federal FI setup, no o2 sensor and with standard double relay, resistor block, and that 5 wire relay left of the double relay is no longer in the system. The one in the pic (double relay) is a special one that appears to have the resistors inside it. The ECU had ALL the terminals where the new one is missing about half its terminals (standard 78 style ECU). This ones a unicorn in my book, never seen another setup this way.
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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Stuartzickefoose
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Thanks mark and George. Much appciated.
And I’ll pull out the DVOM and run the harness resistance test when I get back. I wasn’t expecting such a fast reply
Keep in mind this failure acted exactly like running out of fuel at the stoplight. Slight stutter, give it fuel, falls on its face, let off the pedal and it dies. Restart and it runs briefly then dies, and now it only coughs initially when cranking and doesn’t catch. So to me it was like a mechanical failure not electrical, as the electrical would almost be instant, right? Outside of a loss of fuel pressure from a electrical fault killing the pump, which would have slowly died off. Injectors act instantly when power is cut (say by unplugging trigger wire from negative coil terminal) and it died faster then a fuel filter, and didn’t start after it sat. I pinched the return line until the pump struggled a bit (to raise fuel rail pressure) and that did nothing.
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Stewie, it's starting to sound more like a bum pump adding up all your symptoms. The CSV pisses a little, it coughs, and it's done. The pump can run without building pressure. I've seen this before way more than once.
If the original ECU is a different terminal configuration than the replacement the replacement won't work.
Am I alone in being confused in wondering exactly WTF FI system you're running on this poor thing?
If it acted like it was running out of gas it likely did. Make sure you don't have shit in the tank plugging the feed line too.
GET A PRESSURE GAUGE on the bastid! You should know better! 
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile
Last edited by Tram on Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Maybe it time to investigate the pump, if it shorted internally or somehow was drawing big amps maybe it was responsible for the melty wire? The lack of change when you pinched may mean something.
BTW, I just realized this was a Vanagon so maybe that wire is supposed to be blue.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Stuartzickefoose
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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I’ll snag a pressure gauge first thing when I get back. That would explain a few things for sure. Just great timing the first mile on driving the new top end  Figures.
I’ll snap a few pics of part numbers and ECU numbers. This is a mix of Stuart having not a lot of time, lack of sleep, to many spare parts and a lack of a fuel pressure gauge. I’ll have better time when I get back.
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
I’ll snag a pressure gauge first thing when I get back. That would explain a few things for sure. Just great timing the first mile on driving the new top end Figures.
I’ll snap a few pics of part numbers and ECU numbers. This is a mix of Stuart having not a lot of time, lack of sleep, to many spare parts and a lack of a fuel pressure gauge. I’ll have better time when I get back. |
The best lesson you can teach yourself is to remain coldly methodical when running diagnosis. Diagnosis isn't about an instant "EUREKA" moment... it's about crossing things that the problem ISN'T off the list in the proper order. The first things in any FI checklist are ignition system, fuel feed, and battery/ charging system health.
If the basic stuff isn't right, the car will never run... no matter what.
If you do come up with a shitty pump diagnosis, make sure you verify that you have a free flow from the tank before you just slap another pump on it and burn that one up, too. 
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Just covered this thread, glad you’re making things happen and fulfilling your life in a resurrected machine of adventure!
Good luck with the current running woes...
For a guy from the South, is In N Out really worth anything??
Around here we have diners and drive-ins, and folks put mustard on their biscuits (Slingblade was shot in my hometown).
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Abscate
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| Quote: |
| he best lesson you can teach yourself is to remain coldly methodical when running diagnosis. Diagnosis isn't about an instant "EUREKA" moment... it's about crossing things that the problem ISN'T off the list in the proper order. The first things in any FI checklist are ignition system, fuel feed, and battery/ charging system health. |
This should be required reading before you are allowed to post on Samba.
Everyone wants to think they are a master mechanic who can listen to an engine or read a post and tell You what’s wrong.
The people who can do this have been getting greasy under engines for 50years, doing diagnostics and eliminating causes until the fault remain a solid the last standing.
The rest of us are still in the learning process.
Here, you stop until you measure the fuel pressure p, delivery volume, and the bleed rate.
on edit - missed this
| Quote: |
| Fires off on staring fluid, |
As long as you add a T, and you weren't just staring at it, this is really pointing to a fuel delivery problem. Odds of fuel pump over the esoteric, about 500:1 |
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notchboy
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Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22448
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
For a guy from the South, is In N Out really worth anything??
Around here we have diners and drive-ins, and folks put mustard on their biscuits (Slingblade was shot in my hometown). |
I have had many a burger from lots of different places. In&Out is for fast food one of if not the best Ive had for sure. When I visit San Diego - its all about a Carne Asada Burrito and an In&out Burger. 
Link
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| notchboy wrote: |
| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
For a guy from the South, is In N Out really worth anything??
Around here we have diners and drive-ins, and folks put mustard on their biscuits (Slingblade was shot in my hometown). |
I have had many a burger from lots of different places. In&Out is for fast food one of if not the best Ive had for sure. When I visit San Diego - its all about a Carne Asada Burrito and an In&out Burger.
Link
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Dude. After you've had a genuine Tramburgertm everything else just tastes like burned shoe leather- just admit it.
But then, you did say fast food. Nothing I do is fast. Must be that ADH... wanna ride bikes? SQUIRREL!!!
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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zuhandenheit
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2008
Posts: 846
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| he best lesson you can teach yourself is to remain coldly methodical when running diagnosis. Diagnosis isn't about an instant "EUREKA" moment... it's about crossing things that the problem ISN'T off the list in the proper order. The first things in any FI checklist are ignition system, fuel feed, and battery/ charging system health. |
This should be required reading before you are allowed to post on Samba.
Everyone wants to think they are a master mechanic who can listen to an engine or read a post and tell You what’s wrong.
The people who can do this have been getting greasy under engines for 50years, doing diagnostics and eliminating causes until the fault remain a solid the last standing.
The rest of us are still in the learning process.
|
Good posts. I want to add something else: aside from automotive experience, the ability to diagnose problems depends on a talent for a certain kind of reasoning. I first had an IT job when I was a teenager, and I saw right away that the other guys, all of whom were a lot older and more experienced than I was, did not all possess or anyway demonstrate this capacity.
Some -- ime, many -- people troubleshoot only by working through cause-effect associations. They know what causes what, and so given a symptom can conceive of possible causes, and test/repair them. But they don't actually reason through the problem. This is definitely one of the reasons people throw parts at automotive problems.
A friend told me her fairly new car overheated and went to a mechanic, who replaced the water pump, thermostat, and radiator. (How familiar a story is this?) Of course my first thought was that almost certainly only one part had failed and that the shop didn't attempt diagnostics. We might think this is just laziness, indifference, and/or greed, but in my experience in other contexts (IT, again, and academia), many people actually seem to lack the ability to reason through and properly troubleshoot problems.
I'm not a good mechanic, but I -- like most people here -- have some ability to think through problems. I've made some very big and very stupid mistakes, but the costliest was paying a mechanic, which I have done once in the ten years of my van ownership. |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22448
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| zuhandenheit wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| he best lesson you can teach yourself is to remain coldly methodical when running diagnosis. Diagnosis isn't about an instant "EUREKA" moment... it's about crossing things that the problem ISN'T off the list in the proper order. The first things in any FI checklist are ignition system, fuel feed, and battery/ charging system health. |
This should be required reading before you are allowed to post on Samba.
Everyone wants to think they are a master mechanic who can listen to an engine or read a post and tell You what’s wrong.
The people who can do this have been getting greasy under engines for 50years, doing diagnostics and eliminating causes until the fault remain a solid the last standing.
The rest of us are still in the learning process.
|
Good posts. I want to add something else: aside from automotive experience, the ability to diagnose problems depends on a talent for a certain kind of reasoning. I first had an IT job when I was a teenager, and I saw right away that the other guys, all of whom were a lot older and more experienced than I was, did not all possess or anyway demonstrate this capacity.
Some -- ime, many -- people troubleshoot only by working through cause-effect associations. They know what causes what, and so given a symptom can conceive of possible causes, and test/repair them. But they don't actually reason through the problem. This is definitely one of the reasons people throw parts at automotive problems.
A friend told me her fairly new car overheated and went to a mechanic, who replaced the water pump, thermostat, and radiator. (How familiar a story is this?) Of course my first thought was that almost certainly only one part had failed and that the shop didn't attempt diagnostics. We might think this is just laziness, indifference, and/or greed, but in my experience in other contexts (IT, again, and academia), many people actually seem to lack the ability to reason through and properly troubleshoot problems.
I'm not a good mechanic, but I -- like most people here -- have some ability to think through problems. I've made some very big and very stupid mistakes, but the costliest was paying a mechanic, which I have done once in the ten years of my van ownership. |
Yes human nature what it is as you described tends to throw problems at it. Add stress and fatigue on the side of a road in Nowhere Oregon ones ability to think through goes out the window.
I just had this happen to me over that stupid ground loop on the double relay. Came loose, killed the motor. Couldn't figure it out for the life of me till the next day after spending $400 on towing and lodging!
_________________
| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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Speaking of the double relay:
My '73 had become somewhat hard to start the first time during the day-several seconds of cranking before it'd fire. It would start eventually and I'd drive away thinking, "I need to check the cold start injector" but then forget.
Until last week it wouldn't restart at a gas station, and again from work (after getting a jump at the gas station, whereupon it started and I thought maybe the battery was just getting weak).
Finally I decided to do some actual testing. I noted that the pump didn't always turn on with the pencil in the air flow meter flap trick. But I could hear the relay click. So I started suspecting either the pump or wiring.
Found the voltage was very low at the pump (around .2v) so as I went to investigate the wiring, I started at the relay to work back to the pump.
Turns out the relay was very hot on the pump side, and so what was happening was even though it would trip when it was supposed to, the current wasn't being passed on properly all the time. Sometimes eventually it would pass the current and the pump (and then engine) would run again.
I took the case off to check things and saw no noticeable internal damage (burned current tracks or something) but plugged it into the harness without the case for some more probing and was able to verify that the relay was indeed the problem.
Swapping in another double relay got the bus running once again. How quickly it starts now indicates to me that this was an issue for quite some time.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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zuhandenheit
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2008
Posts: 846
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Corkey! The 1980 Westfalia Vanagon |
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| notchboy wrote: |
| zuhandenheit wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| he best lesson you can teach yourself is to remain coldly methodical when running diagnosis. Diagnosis isn't about an instant "EUREKA" moment... it's about crossing things that the problem ISN'T off the list in the proper order. The first things in any FI checklist are ignition system, fuel feed, and battery/ charging system health. |
This should be required reading before you are allowed to post on Samba.
Everyone wants to think they are a master mechanic who can listen to an engine or read a post and tell You what’s wrong.
The people who can do this have been getting greasy under engines for 50years, doing diagnostics and eliminating causes until the fault remain a solid the last standing.
The rest of us are still in the learning process.
|
Good posts. I want to add something else: aside from automotive experience, the ability to diagnose problems depends on a talent for a certain kind of reasoning. I first had an IT job when I was a teenager, and I saw right away that the other guys, all of whom were a lot older and more experienced than I was, did not all possess or anyway demonstrate this capacity.
Some -- ime, many -- people troubleshoot only by working through cause-effect associations. They know what causes what, and so given a symptom can conceive of possible causes, and test/repair them. But they don't actually reason through the problem. This is definitely one of the reasons people throw parts at automotive problems.
A friend told me her fairly new car overheated and went to a mechanic, who replaced the water pump, thermostat, and radiator. (How familiar a story is this?) Of course my first thought was that almost certainly only one part had failed and that the shop didn't attempt diagnostics. We might think this is just laziness, indifference, and/or greed, but in my experience in other contexts (IT, again, and academia), many people actually seem to lack the ability to reason through and properly troubleshoot problems.
I'm not a good mechanic, but I -- like most people here -- have some ability to think through problems. I've made some very big and very stupid mistakes, but the costliest was paying a mechanic, which I have done once in the ten years of my van ownership. |
Yes human nature what it is as you described tends to throw problems at it. Add stress and fatigue on the side of a road in Nowhere Oregon ones ability to think through goes out the window.
I just had this happen to me over that stupid ground loop on the double relay. Came loose, killed the motor. Couldn't figure it out for the life of me till the next day after spending $400 on towing and lodging! |
Hah, yes, and for me nothing interferes with cognition more than heat! I am much more likely to make mistakes when I'm forced to attempt repairs on hot days! |
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