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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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To all,
Regarding the Audi turbo transmission, the benefit of increased planetary gears and increased number of clutches is enjoyed. Wondering why? See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing
For the lazy, I provide some excerpts:
Planetary gear trains provide high power density in comparison to standard parallel axis gear trains. They provide a reduction volume, multiple kinematic combinations, purely torsional reactions, and coaxial shafting. Disadvantages include high bearing loads, constant lubrication requirements, inaccessibility, and design complexity.
The efficiency loss in a planetary gear train is 3% per stage. This type of efficiency ensures that a high proportion of the energy being input is transmitted through the gearbox, rather than being wasted on mechanical losses inside the gearbox.
The load in a planetary gear train is shared among multiple planets, therefore torque capability is greatly increased. The more planets in the system, the greater load ability and the higher the torque density.
The planetary gear train also provides stability due to an even distribution of mass and increased rotational stiffness. Torque applied radially onto the gears of a planetary gear train is transferred radially by the gear, without lateral pressure on the gear teeth.
I hope this helps.
kourt |
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ThankYouJerry Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2012 Posts: 2271 Location: Shakedown Street
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Point of Reference
This is the cost breakdown from GTA for a rebuilt auto trans:
Rebuilt Auto Trans $1595.00
Turbo Upgrade 800.00 (optional)
Core Deposit 750.00
FAS cooler kit 299.95 (optional)
Shipping (B to B) 335.38 (price varies)
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Grand Total $3780.33 (Less the core deposit if your's is acceptable)
This is what's included in the "Turbo" option for the additional $800:
4 gear planetary; larger direct reverse drum; extra clutch in forward clutch, RV stall converter, bronze bushings. _________________ 1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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blaze80 Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2013 Posts: 150 Location: Farmville, VA
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Kourt-
I have an auto- have only ever had automatic vanagons and love them! My first was an 84 Vanagon GL back in 1996, had it rebuilt for @$1600 back then and it ran beautifully. I now have a 1990 Carat and last year bought an Audi Turbo trans to do the swap over, just haven't gotten around to it yet! I'm looking forward to the thread, as I too plan to add the Peloquin LSD, the "freeway flyer" R&P, and the FAS cooler..... then there's the big plans for the 1.8t conversion (one day). Thanks for posting this- gotcha bookmarked now!
-Bob _________________ /// '89 Syncro Sport Joker, Reimo Hightop, mTDI
/// '90 Carat (SOLD)
/// '06 Audi A4 Avant S-line (SOLD)
/// '92 mk2 Jetta GL 8v (SOLD)
/// '89 'Bluestar' (SOLD)
/// '04 Audi S4 (SOLD)
/// '99 Jetta GLX VR6 (SOLD)
/// '84 Vanagon GL (SOLD) |
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oldskewlsk8ter Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 347 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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ThankYouJerry wrote: |
Point of Reference
This is the cost breakdown from GTA for a rebuilt auto trans:
Rebuilt Auto Trans $1595.00
Turbo Upgrade 800.00 (optional)
Core Deposit 750.00
FAS cooler kit 299.95 (optional)
Shipping (B to B) 335.38 (price varies)
--------------------------------------
Grand Total $3780.33 (Less the core deposit if your's is acceptable)
This is what's included in the "Turbo" option for the additional $800:
4 gear planetary; larger direct reverse drum; extra clutch in forward clutch, RV stall converter, bronze bushings. |
If you throw in the taller r&p there's another $1500. GTA didn't have any in stock when I checked last, and they won't warranty it if not purchased from them. _________________ 1986 Hightop w/EJ25 DOHC & 4EAT auto
1965 Kombi project |
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ThankYouJerry Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2012 Posts: 2271 Location: Shakedown Street
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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oldskewlsk8ter wrote: |
ThankYouJerry wrote: |
Point of Reference
This is the cost breakdown from GTA for a rebuilt auto trans:
Rebuilt Auto Trans $1595.00
Turbo Upgrade 800.00 (optional)
Core Deposit 750.00
FAS cooler kit 299.95 (optional)
Shipping (B to B) 335.38 (price varies)
--------------------------------------
Grand Total $3780.33 (Less the core deposit if your's is acceptable)
This is what's included in the "Turbo" option for the additional $800:
4 gear planetary; larger direct reverse drum; extra clutch in forward clutch, RV stall converter, bronze bushings. |
If you throw in the taller r&p there's another $1500. GTA didn't have any in stock when I checked last, and they won't warranty it if not purchased from them. |
Actually, they won't warranty any part of the rebuilt trans if mated to a non-stock engine. Most people who upgrade from a stock R&P are doing so because they don't have a stock engine. This is a copy/paste from an email I received from them last year:
"The 2 year unlimited mile warranty is from time of install, within reason. We ask for the warranty paper work to be returned within 30 days of invoice or it is null and void. However if you are running a non stock engine there is no warranty. We do cover our workmanship for 2 years.
The turbo does not come with an additional warranty.
I hope this answers all of your questions.
Thank you,
Kateka" _________________ 1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD |
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oldskewlsk8ter Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 347 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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ThankYouJerry wrote: |
"The 2 year unlimited mile warranty is from time of install, within reason. We ask for the warranty paper work to be returned within 30 days of invoice or it is null and void. However if you are running a non stock engine there is no warranty. We do cover our workmanship for 2 years.
The turbo does not come with an additional warranty.
I hope this answers all of your questions.
Thank you,
Kateka" |
Well, thanks for that info...they never mentioned anything like that even after me telling them I'm running an EJ25. Hmmm, decisions decisions. _________________ 1986 Hightop w/EJ25 DOHC & 4EAT auto
1965 Kombi project |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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IdahoDoug wrote: |
Subscribed. |
Ditto!
My van had it's auto trans rebuilt shortly before I bought it, but this is still very relevant to my future interests.
kourt wrote: |
Have you ever wondered what ATF and coolant intermixing looks like? ... For reference, here are some shots of intermixed ATF and coolant. |
So glad I no longer have to worry about that happening:
_________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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I would try and find an Audi 200 turbo in a junkyard with the three speed 010..keep in mind the laterAudi turbos had the better internals you want and there is chance if the transmission is not original to the car..it may have been swapped with a rebuilt or used transmission without the good stuff. You don't need or want the Audi transaxle..only the automatic section.
Find your turbo and take your time and build your own automatic. Lots of support and information available..those 010s were on everything VW/Audi.
As far as a heavy duty built Vanagon automatic transaxle..the Vanagon transaxle is very strong as it is. You can do some trick stuff..but it won't matter much really. Fun, yes..needed, no.
I like the beefier automatic. It makes sense on a heavy bus.
My rebuild with the turbo internal, fun.
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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djkeev wrote: |
Jake de Villiers wrote: |
djkeev wrote: |
A Vanagon Weekender is said to weigh 5160 lbs. |
Whoever said that is wrong. My Vanagon Weekender weighs ~4000 lbs. Its usually around 4500-4800 lbs all loaded for a weekend at a bluegrass festival - instruments, food & drink... |
Hmmmmmm I get my weight ratings from Volkwagen AG West Germany........... You get yours from?
Granted this is Maximum...... But you need to plan for this loaded weight.
Dave |
That's the GVW, Dave, not the curb weight! My van's been over the truck scales up and down the coast - the numbers I quoted are an average of ten years worth of weighing, pre- and post-Subaru swap.
The Audi with a curb weight of 3500 lbs, plus 5 200 lb passengers and 200 lbs of luggage is in the same ballpark, eh? _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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ThankYouJerry Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2012 Posts: 2271 Location: Shakedown Street
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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oldskewlsk8ter wrote: |
ThankYouJerry wrote: |
"The 2 year unlimited mile warranty is from time of install, within reason. We ask for the warranty paper work to be returned within 30 days of invoice or it is null and void. However if you are running a non stock engine there is no warranty. We do cover our workmanship for 2 years.
The turbo does not come with an additional warranty.
I hope this answers all of your questions.
Thank you,
Kateka" |
Well, thanks for that info...they never mentioned anything like that even after me telling them I'm running an EJ25. Hmmm, decisions decisions. |
Yes, that was the reply I received after sending this email (never mentioned my 1.8T... in fact, I think I was still thinking Bostig at that time):
Hi Kateka,
Is the 2yr unlimited mile warranty:
1. "From the time it is received?"
or
2. "From the time of installation?"
3. Also, does the "turbo" rebuild have the same 2yr or a better warranty?
GTA has a pretty good reputation. Which other reputable trans shops rebuild autos? Not AA and not Rancho. When I stopped by GW last summer they said they were going to start doing them in house, but that hasn't materialized yet. GTA is still doing GW's for them. I'd be willing to bet GTA has done more autos than any other shop in the US.
FWIW... When Stephan did my 1.8T conversion, he took out the FAS trans cooler GTA installed in favor of the GW cooler... Now he's taking that out and replacing with Salim's (Countryhomes Campers) kit which includes a large external cooler with a Derale fan. _________________ 1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD
Last edited by ThankYouJerry on Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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madspaniard Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008 Posts: 3795 Location: Alameda, CA
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Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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I'm also part of this club
About 3 years driving with a fully rebuilt auto tranny with the Audi 5000T internals plus a Peloquin torque biasing differential, a VW Rabbit valve body, stock R&P and governor, FAS cooler, and Powerflex polyurethane transmission mount bushing. _________________ 1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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Gizmoman Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011 Posts: 1554 Location: Nevada
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:48 am Post subject: |
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I will be watching this post as well. My DK is quite tired and the wife has bad knees so an auto with the taller final would be an ideal match for my 1.9 AAZ.
Just for reference, the cooler you have chosen looks small. I built a very similar one to cool the water for my intercooler and it did't lower my intake temps much at all. Besides that, the fan was louder than you might think.
I ended up with a 3.5 x 7 x 27 and no fan. It's mounted basically in the same area as you have chosen and cools my intake temps to 10 degrees above ambient.
I know it's not transmission fluid but they are both removing heat from fluid and for me, the small one was a waste of time and money and adding more noise is counterintuitive - just sayin. _________________ 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15129 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:59 am Post subject: |
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OK so on to the Valve body as an upgraded part..
anyone have anything specific or hearsay regarding what the differences or improvements of one over the other may be?
madspaniard wrote: |
I'm also part of this club
About 3 years driving with a fully rebuilt auto tranny with the Audi 5000T internals plus a Peloquin torque biasing differential, a VW Rabbit valve body, stock R&P and governor, FAS cooler, and Powerflex polyurethane transmission mount bushing. |
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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dart330 Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 452 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:07 am Post subject: |
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I am watching this thread very closely as well. Plan on using GTA for a rebuild in the near future. Already have the FAS Cooler. For a contribution here is the factory troubleshooting manual for the 010.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/Lost%20Knowledge/010_troubleshooting_guide.pdf
I also came across a suggestion that Redline ATF can be used in the trans and final drive eliminating the threat of cross contamination. I do not know if this fluid can actually be used in the differential, but I would like to know as this could buy me time before a full replacement.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9
Quote: |
Provides a GL-4 level of gear protection. Also used with manual transmissions and transaxles. |
Last edited by dart330 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:21 am; edited 2 times in total |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:26 am Post subject: |
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kourt wrote: |
To all,
Regarding the Audi turbo transmission, the benefit of increased planetary gears and increased number of clutches is enjoyed. Wondering why? See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing
For the lazy, I provide some excerpts:
Planetary gear trains provide high power density in comparison to standard parallel axis gear trains. They provide a reduction volume, multiple kinematic combinations, purely torsional reactions, and coaxial shafting. Disadvantages include high bearing loads, constant lubrication requirements, inaccessibility, and design complexity.
The efficiency loss in a planetary gear train is 3% per stage. This type of efficiency ensures that a high proportion of the energy being input is transmitted through the gearbox, rather than being wasted on mechanical losses inside the gearbox.
The load in a planetary gear train is shared among multiple planets, therefore torque capability is greatly increased. The more planets in the system, the greater load ability and the higher the torque density.
The planetary gear train also provides stability due to an even distribution of mass and increased rotational stiffness. Torque applied radially onto the gears of a planetary gear train is transferred radially by the gear, without lateral pressure on the gear teeth.
I hope this helps.
kourt |
Thanks for the information! Yes, it helps answer the "Why" Of the task before you.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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HoustonPhotog Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2013 Posts: 1514 Location: Houston, TX
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AtlasShrugged Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008 Posts: 1605 Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:00 am Post subject: |
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I've experimented with different valve bodies on the Vanagon 010. A "Rabbit, that being a 90 VW Cabriolet" VB, stock VB and a Porsche 944 VB. I did not modify the governor.
I could not tell a big difference between the different VBs. Yes the shift points were different but not a big deal. The Vanagon VB felt like the best match for the bus, being a heavy vehicle, low revving engine by design and in the quest for best fuel economy.
Right now I have the Vanagon VB on the Vanagon and the Porsche 944 VB on my daughter's 90 VW Cabriolet. That VB felt the best for the 1.8 engine. That automatic has some internals from a Porsche 924. Not the four gear planetaries. The Cabriolet is very light and really doesn't need them. Beefier metal thrust washers rather than plastic, with a riveted second gear band piston (no "C" clip) and a metal accumulator.
Can't swear to it..but the Porsche metal accumulator/spring seemed to make the shifting more firm and precise. The metal accumulators were used in the early 80's. They changed over to a plastic accumulator sometime around 1985. |
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dart330 Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 452 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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dart330 wrote: |
I also came across a suggestion that Redline ATF can be used in the trans and final drive eliminating the threat of cross contamination. I do not know if this fluid can actually be used in the differential, but I would like to know as this could buy me time before a full replacement.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9
Quote: |
Provides a GL-4 level of gear protection. Also used with manual transmissions and transaxles. |
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It looks like this has been asked a few times but nobody has posted an actual response from redline. I guess I will shoot them an email.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418681
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=355605
I also emailed Jeff Field at http://www.transaxleengineering.com as they have beefed up the 010 for racing purposes in cars with 600HP. This includes Kevlar bands, forged input shafts, upgraded clutches, valve bodies, 4340 alloy 4 planetary carrier, etc. This all sounds like overkill to me but I plan to give him a call and discuss which upgrades would be good for heavy loads and transmission longevity.
Does anyone have a full part list of what is included in the GTA turbo upgrade? |
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