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h00drat
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Location: Hood River
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h00drat
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vwhammer
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Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 998
Location: Boulder CO.
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 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Most of the data says the direct frictions should measure around 2.2-2.26mm thick when new.
Curious what yours measure. |
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h00drat
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Location: Hood River
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AtlasShrugged
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Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| Gruppe B wrote: |
In reviewing other threads I found that I may have missed a seal that should have been replaced.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20
| AtlasShrugged wrote: |
The check seal goes inside the turbine shaft..but I have to say that the part is rarely replaced and the ATF pump fills the torque converter very quickly.
Item number 59A in the parts list:
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When rebuilding dont forget to change this. I dont even know where this seal would go in the turbine shaft. I did change the rings on the turbine shaft but not this seal. |
That is an anti-drainback seal for the torque converter..to keep AFT from running back into the sump.
I have never seen one in real life. Only the parts catalog. I suspect they were never installed or quickly became dislodged and went into the torque converter never to be seen again.
Dont worry about that seal. |
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
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Location: Hood River
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vwhammer
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Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 998
Location: Boulder CO.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| h00drat wrote: |
| My direct frictions measured in right around 2.2mm, so I don't feel terrible about having to reuse them. |
Yeah I suppose if you think about how an auto trans works there should be very little wear on most of the clutches unless the trans was slipping badly from some other issue.
I mean more or less those clutch packs just clamp together and engage a gear then open up when it no longer needs that gear.
They should not be slipping a whole lot during engagement like a traditional clutch on a manual trans.
Therefore, there should technically be less wear.
Most are probably reusable.
However, since I found the new steels and frictions and they were less than 40 shipped to my door I might as well put the new stuff in it.
Of course all of this hinges on whether the frictions are actually in stock and I actually receive them. |
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| vwhammer wrote: |
Yeah I suppose if you think about how an auto trans works there should be very little wear on most of the clutches unless the trans was slipping badly from some other issue.
I mean more or less those clutch packs just clamp together and engage a gear then open up when it no longer needs that gear.
They should not be slipping a whole lot during engagement like a traditional clutch on a manual trans.
Therefore, there should technically be less wear.
Most are probably reusable.
However, since I found the new steels and frictions and they were less than 40 shipped to my door I might as well put the new stuff in it.
Of course all of this hinges on whether the frictions are actually in stock and I actually receive them. |
For sure. I'm actually looking forward to breaking into the Vanagon trans to see if I can pinpoint what went wrong in there. When I stopped driving it, I still have reverse, but no forward gears at all (1, 2, or D). I wonder what things will look like inside.
This Audi trans, on the other hand, was very clean. Really no shavings or signs of wear that I can see.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Butcher
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Joined: December 05, 2015
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| AtlasShrugged wrote: |
| That is an anti-drainback seal for the torque converter..to keep AFT from running back into the sump. |
I'm pretty certain the anti-drainback circuit for the converter is a check valve [ball/spring] and it is located in the front housing where the torque converter sits on. The check valve is on the drain side of the converter, not the pressure side. |
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vwhammer
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Posts: 998
Location: Boulder CO.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Well as I suspected that Car ID place also did not have the frictions in stock.
Looks like I will be reusing the stuff that's in my Audi trans as well. |
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h00drat
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Location: Hood River
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h00drat
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Hi everyone,
I finally got the trans pulled from the van. I was looking forward to pulling it a part to see what sort of mayhem had occurred in there. It was quite obvious.
The sniff test tells me had some major gear oil entering the transmission.
1. Clutch plates, almost all of them, were completely fried.
2. Brake band left some major grooves in the outside of the direct drum.
Here are a few pictures, and a couple of questions. Looking for some insight...
Just a shot of some fried up frictions. Warn all the way to the metal:
Now, going down the list, direct drums side by side. Audi left, van right. You can see the grooves in the van direct drum. Fortunately I already planned on using the audi direct drum.
Closeup of grooves:
Audi drum:
Now for the forward clutch. I hadn't decided between the two. They appear to be identical in size, and will take the same size internal parts, which I have. The audi drum has some grooves on the outside of it, so I'm leaning toward using the one from the van. Any opinions? Van left, audi right.
Close up of grooves:
From the van:
One way clutches appear to be identical, and both in good shape. Any reason to use one over the other?
Lastly, trying to figure how which of these seals, and where they go. I already resealed the 2nd gear brake piston, installed new cir-clips on the ATF pump. I know where all the big ones go, but other than the obvious trans > diff seals, are there more I should be using/replacing?
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Heads up, if you order a rebuild kit from WITTRANS, you should call and clarify WHAT DIFFERENTIAL you have.
They sent me the correct transmission rebuild kit, but with the differential seals for an 010, not the 087 dif.
You can see on this page that they have both:
https://www.wittrans.com/parts?type=010
My kit didn't come with the dif > trans seals that I need, or the torque converter seal.
Some images for reference of what I got, and what I need.
My two seals, bottom, what came in the kit, top:
My two seals, bottom, plus all 9 that came in the kit. None of which I can use:
Two closes seals to the torque converter seal.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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AtlasShrugged
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Joined: October 30, 2008
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Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| AtlasShrugged wrote: |
| That is an anti-drainback seal for the torque converter..to keep AFT from running back into the sump. |
I'm pretty certain the anti-drainback circuit for the converter is a check valve [ball/spring] and it is located in the front housing where the torque converter sits on. The check valve is on the drain side of the converter, not the pressure side. |
VW is silent on the purpose of that mystery seal. Porsche actually illuminates the purpose and gives instruction on how to install the seal.
I would not worry about the seal..
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Butcher
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Interesting that they would seal the pressure side of the converter. There is a torque converter pressure slide valve that will close when the engine is not running. This would close off any oil that may drain back to the transmission pan. As I mentioned before, the drain side of the converter is done with a small check ball and spring.
Is it a lip seal? If so, then I do not see how it would flow oil one way, but not the other.
Anyway, thanks for posting your information.
Last edited by Butcher on Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Hey all,
Would anybody be willing to audit my assembly?
It's the last 13 images here:
https://photos.google.com/u/1/share/AF1QipMLYCsela...VleFVJb2FB
I found answers to most of my questions previously posted.
Everything went back together well except for the one-way clutch. I can't seem to get it right. When installed, the planetary gear set won't most in either direction. I believe it SHOULD move clockwise still. The one-way clutch also won't sit low enough for the snap-ring to be installed.
See orientation in these images for reference. I followed the Bentley's instructions. Note - this is the clutch from the Audi which looks identical to the one I pulled from the Vanagon.
Installed (not correct)
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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Gruppe B
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Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Hello Tyler,
Sorry I can't help with the reassembly question.
I am however wondering about the torque setting for our Audi 5000T 1984+ brake band.
I set mine to the Vanagon requirement but because the direct drum on the later Audi is bigger than the Vanagon, I'm wondering if I used the wrong torque setting?? I need to find someone with a Audi 5000T Bentley manual
I'll see what I can find |
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h00drat
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Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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| Gruppe B wrote: |
Hello Tyler,
Sorry I can't help with the reassembly question.
I am however wondering about the torque setting for our Audi 5000T 1984+ brake band.
I set mine to the Vanagon requirement but because the direct drum on the later Audi is bigger than the Vanagon, I'm wondering if I used the wrong torque setting?? I need to find someone with a Audi 5000T Bentley manual
I'll see what I can find |
Good point. I used the Audi5000 piston, but the adjusting rod from the Vanagon. The rod sticks out super far. I'm assuming the rod for the Audi is shorter, so I'm going to give that one a shot.
I suspect the torque setting and backing out 2.5 turns would be the same regardless of which direct drum you use, but I could be wrong.
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<<Tyler>>
1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender / CHC / 2.0 ABA
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h00drat
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2016
Posts: 881
Location: Hood River
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle |
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Switching to the brand band adjuster from the Audi was a good choice. Doesn't stick out quite so far.
For my one way clutch issue, I discovered after re-reading Kourts initial post on page 5 that I should be installing 4 steels, and 4 frictions. I was installing 5. I wonder if the late Audi 5000t has a longer case, allowing for more frictions? At any rate, installing 4 of each allows the planetary gear to still move clockwise, but not counter, and the clip is in.
I am only slightly concerned by this gap above the last friction, only because I don't know if it should be there. It looks like there is room for 1 more steel, but not another friction on top.
Thoughts?
Fully seated:
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<<Tyler>>
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