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vw76westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2007
Posts: 1584
Location: so cal
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 Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:45 pm Post subject: heads are to hot type-4 2.0 FI way to hot !!! |
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it is a stock 2.0 type-4 engine with hydraulic lifter
stock 77-78 fi system with a 020 afm
compression is between 105 and 110 on all 4
it only takes 2min of warm up for head temps to reach 350
once the bus is moving head temp gets to 400
and if I step on gas head temps go 425+
(temp will come back down somewhat quickly if I let off throttle)
gas consumption is 16.3 mpg consistent for the last 1500miles
oil temp takes 15-30 min to reach 180+
oil pressure is 60 when cold 10 when hot
valves checked at every tank of gas
engine history........
I bought it in unknown condition
and it sat in my garage for at least 5 years
when the time came to use it oil still looked good and fresh
so I replaced oil and most gaskets
torqued heads and pressure washed
before dressing with clean painted tins and fi
I have been driving with these temps every day now for the last 3-4 months
logging a good 2k miles since the install
temps takin are from standard vdo gauges and confirmed with
a temp gun
as long as the bus is moving oil temp is normal but if I sit in traffic to long on a cold day
or for just 5-10 min on a hot day
oil temp gos up oil pressure falls and then both snowball from there......
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16961
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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This is going to be good
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PITApan
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2014
Posts: 1058
Location: Northern Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: heads are to hot type-4 2.0 FI way to hot !!! |
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| vw76westy wrote: |
it is a stock 2.0 type-4 engine with hydraulic lifter
stock 77-78 fi system with a 020 afm
compression is between 105 and 110 on all 4
it only takes 2min of warm up for head temps to reach 350
once the bus is moving head temp gets to 400
and if I step on gas head temps go 425+
(temp will come back down somewhat quickly if I let off throttle)
gas consumption is 16.3 mpg consistent for the last 1500miles
oil temp takes 15-30 min to reach 180+
oil pressure is 60 when cold 10 when hot
valves checked at every tank of gas
engine history........
I bought it in unknown condition
and it sat in my garage for at least 5 years
when the time came to use it oil still looked good and fresh
so I replaced oil and most gaskets
torqued heads and pressure washed
before dressing with clean painted tins and fi
I have been driving with these temps every day now for the last 3-4 months
logging a good 2k miles since the install
temps takin are from standard vdo gauges and confirmed with
a temp gun
as long as the bus is moving oil temp is normal but if I sit in traffic to long on a cold day
or for just 5-10 min on a hot day
oil temp gos up oil pressure falls and then both snowball from there...... |
Compression, head temps, oil pressures and low mileage all point to a worn engine. I would get a leak down on it.
I gather you are using a ring sensor under the #3 plug for the CHT? |
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MacLeod Willy
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Is it possible the exhaust could be partially plugged from sitting for 5 years, furry pets in there |
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vw76westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2007
Posts: 1584
Location: so cal
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| MacLeod Willy wrote: |
| Is it possible the exhaust could be partially plugged from sitting for 5 years, furry pets in there |
everything on the long block was replaced or gone threw before installing
the original heater boxes were replaced with 72-74 boxes
at first I did think the air from heater boxes was coming back up
and so they were capped on the engine compartment side
after that I did not see any change in temps
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The Type 4 engine is considered by many to be VW's finest air-cooled motor, |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| What is your timing set at? 28°BTDC at 3500+ rpm's hoses off? Have you checked your mixture with a wide band exhaust analyser? |
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vw76westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2007
Posts: 1584
Location: so cal
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| What is your timing set at? 28°BTDC at 3500+ rpm's hoses off? Have you checked your mixture with a wide band exhaust analyser? |
timing has been checked
but ive been told that a bad dist could cause the hot heads
air flow meter is my number #1 suspect right now
although my mpg's are 16 ??? could it still be lean ???
_________________
order your BAY WINDOW T-SHIRT here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1526918
quote from bay window bus buyers guide........
The Type 4 engine is considered by many to be VW's finest air-cooled motor, |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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So your engine has clean tins, good oil pressure, OK compression. The engine starts and runs fine and gets reasonable economy and you've had NO problems driving it for the last 1000+ miles and four months.... Just like it - and millions of others - have done for decades
And now you think the widgets are TOO hot?
Did you get a gauge for Christmas?
Or did you read it on the Internet? |
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1967250s
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 2137
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Flaps working correctly? Almost sounds like too much fuel is being sprayed, could there be a problem with the AFM, or a vacuum leak?
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aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| 1967250s wrote: |
| Flaps working correctly? Almost sounds like too much fuel is being sprayed, could there be a problem with the AFM, or a vacuum leak? |
That would likely richen the mixture and cool everything down. Where are you now measuring the temps from and with what gauge? Check the S
spark plug and sender for leaks. Have you done an oil service, even pull the pressure relief spring plug and spring and make sure its moving smoothly in the bore. What oil is it using?
Head temps getting crazy hot at idle just doesn't make sense. oil pressure will drop as it warms, but what is the actual pressure you are seeing when driving, PSI vs. RPM? Try a thicker oil
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curtis4085
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2011
Posts: 4806
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:09 am Post subject: |
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I would recheck timing!!i know you said it was checked. Dial it back and see of that solves your problem.
What's your air fuel mix set at at run speeds
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16961
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:20 am Post subject: |
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I see one of these in your future
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Raul - several asked - what is the timing set to? It should be 29 degrees BTDC at 3500+ RPM with the hoses off. The mechanical advance should work smoothly as the RPM's go up and down.
What condition is the fan? Were the vanes in good condition?
Are the flaps working right? The spring that holds them open still good?
Heater box inlets and outlets should be functional as they pull heat from the exhaust ports.
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3898
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| vw76westy wrote: |
| heads are to[sic] hot |
Who told you this?
There's actual FIRE in them heads. 400 degrees F is as nothing compared to the temp of that FIRE.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
| vw76westy wrote: |
| heads are to[sic] hot |
Who told you this?
There's actual FIRE in them heads. 400 degrees F is as nothing compared to the temp of that FIRE. |
around town several of us are running 340F - 350F, and 375F on the freeway 60 and below. Around 390F - 400F at 65 - 70 mph is common.
I did have a spark plug that did not seal using the VDO sender as the sealing ring, and that elevated the temps. Using the ring and the VDO sender solved the issue.
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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| kreemoweet wrote: |
| vw76westy wrote: |
| heads are to[sic] hot |
Who told you this?
There's actual FIRE in them heads. 400 degrees F is as nothing compared to the temp of that FIRE. |
around town several of us are running 340F - 350F, and 375F on the freeway 60 and below. Around 390F - 400F at 65 - 70 mph is common.
I did have a spark plug that did not seal using the VDO sender as the sealing ring, and that elevated the temps. Using the ring and the VDO sender solved the issue. |
If there is a non-compensated VDO gauge currently installed, it will read unexpectedly high in cold ambient conditions.
If the compression is a good solid 105 + (decent for a dished type 4) and it is running well, I would:
a) check spark plug color, if nothing is horribly bleached all the way to the outer area of the plug where the threads are, . . .
* b) make sure the gauge ring terminal is not leaking (no blowby soot is there?) and does not get damaged in the reinstallation of the plugs,
c) drive it.
Colin
* I think this is the problem - fast temp rise is almost always gas leak at the plug
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vw76westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2007
Posts: 1584
Location: so cal
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
So your engine has clean tins, good oil pressure, OK compression. The engine starts and runs fine and gets reasonable economy and you've had NO problems driving it for the last 1000+ miles and four months.... Just like it - and millions of others - have done for decades
And now you think the widgets are TOO hot?
Did you get a gauge for Christmas?
Or did you read it on the Internet? |
to be clear the heads have been running hot since day 1
so no this does not have to do with gauges for x-mas
it has to do with me running out of things to check....
aerosurfer wrote
| Quote: |
| Head temps getting crazy hot at idle just doesn't make sense. oil pressure will drop as it warms, but what is the actual pressure you are seeing when driving, PSI vs. RPM? Try a thicker oil |
pressure relief valve has been looked at
oil pressure was a little on the low side when using 20-50
so I put 1 quart of 40wt and pressure improved 100% (that's 3 quarts of 20-50 and 1 of 40)
oil pressure at idle when cold is 60+
once oil temp reaches 180 I have perfect oil pressure (10psi for every 1k rpm's)
curtis4085 wrote
| Quote: |
I would recheck timing!!i know you said it was checked. Dial it back and see of that solves your problem.
What's your air fuel mix set at at run speeds |
timing is 28 at top rpm
I honestly cant say what fuel mix is
I have tried using a different air flow meter that gave me no changes
sgkent wrote
| Quote: |
What condition is the fan? Were the vanes in good condition?
Are the flaps working right? The spring that holds them open still good?
Heater box inlets and outlets should be functional as they pull heat from the exhaust ports. |
fan is in excellent condition
flaps have ben checked checked checked
I figured maybe the the flap on driver side got disconnected from the bar
and causing the head with temp gauge to run hot
but the temp gun tells me that the pass side head is just as hot (eliminating that theory )
heater boxes are capped in the engine compartment (no fan)
complete on other side....
| Quote: |
Who told you this?
There's actual FIRE in them heads. 400 degrees F is as nothing compared to the temp of that FIRE. |
the only time ive ever seen head temp @350+ is when going up the grape vine (6%grade for 30+miles)on a 105 degree day with a full load
otherwise im used to seeing head temps between 250-300
all temps that im stating are confirmed with a temp gun
pointed at different spots of both heads then compared to gauge reading
for oil temp, temp is takin @ drain plug, taco plate, dip stick and compared to gauge
I can drive all day @ 70mph
head temp will be at 450
oil temp will be @ just under the 210mark
pressure @ 8-10 per 1k rpm
I can cruise around town at low rpm's
head temp will be 350+
oil temp at 180
pressure 10+for every 1k rpm
but 10-15 min of stop and go traffic
head temp will be 350+
oil temp will slowly climb past the 210 mark
oil pressure will drop to 5 (after passing 210temp)
which then quickly raises oil temp to 250 which makes pressure drop even further...........
I don't see any reason for oil temp to go up so much
other than head temps being high to start with
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order your BAY WINDOW T-SHIRT here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1526918
quote from bay window bus buyers guide........
The Type 4 engine is considered by many to be VW's finest air-cooled motor, |
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like some tin is missing. Re-check you tin under the cylinders, and the position of the oil cooler deflector tin. What thermostat are you using? some fail in the closed position. Some builders bleed the "remove the flaps" mentality to the T4 with disastrous results.
The fact that your running a gallon of mixed oils is also a clue. Might try an oil change and pick one oil grade.
Did the engine originally have carbs and was built to an FI engine? If so maybe the fuel pump rod was removed and is pissing pressure?--Hey-ya never know--  :roll--
Along the same note is the engine a previously solid lifter motor with the pressure relief valve on the passengers side of the motor? It could lower your oil pressure if stuck open.
Can you show us your spark plugs  - you may be running a vac leak and leaning out your mixture. Try some (unlit) propane in the intake and listen to the revs- if they climb you have a leak, if it bogs, you have a rich condition.
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udidwht
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Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Yes...when you get a chance pull the plugs and compare to these which were on the lean side ~ mid 14's. Take notice that the porcelain is NOT bleach white.
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Jeff Geisen
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Joined: December 21, 2004
Posts: 1881
Location: N.W. Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Your gauge may no be too accurate.
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