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ORANGECRUSHer
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: tie-rod beef |
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I've read how rods can be beef-ified with either an inner rod or an outer sleeve. In keeping with my habit of overdoing, I'm going to do both and already found the inner rod. Just wondering what type of tube people used for the sleeve. Seems like I've seen pictures of black pipe being used but when I brought my rod to the store the 1/2" pipe was too small and the 3/4" was at least 1/8" or more too big. Gonna go to the yard today and try to match some thing up but I'm hoping someone can maybe save me some time wandering around outside in freezing temps and give me an idea what they found fit nice.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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no1clyde
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2013
Posts: 365
Location: Elko Nv.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:57 am Post subject: |
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OC I had to sleeve mine on my yellow buggy and at the time I had 60' of 1" .120 wall tubing for my Baja project on the other forum and I tube fit perfectly and has worked great. Before that I was bending the long one often.
Ed
Last edited by no1clyde on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Not sure what tie rods you have but I hammered in (interference fit) some cold rolled round stock. Beveling the edges helped a lot. Picture shows round stock ~75% pounded in.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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fishybastard
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Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 269
Location: Holland MI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| ^ What he said. Mine are then welded on the ends. I did not make them but you are welcome to stop by and take a look. |
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I used 3/4 and just welded it. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the middle and just shooting some weld into that. Just remember to keep it long
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Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
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ORANGECRUSHer
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the help. I ended up finding some tubing that has a 1" O.D. but the I.D. seems to be just a smidge thinner than 1/8". I love working with metal and fabbin' but I hate calculating fractions when talking about thicknesses so smidge is the best your gonna get outa me!
Anyway, it'll do nice. Not sure if it is tube or pipe because it's got the black finish on the outside but it doesn't have the dimensions of pipe. So I picked up some odds to put together a hook and rod setup on the arms as well.
Looks like my trip to New Orleans in April might be canceled so I can take my time a bit more putting my beam back together. 
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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superpro56
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Joined: July 25, 2012
Posts: 206
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Why the trend in beefing up tie-rods? To me, all systems need a weak link in order to save the more expensive part, in this case easily deformed tie-rods in lieu of a rack. How much punishment are you guys putting your rigs through? I opted for aluminum hex tubing with heims, my thinking was it would be easier to replace a $10 piece of aluminum rather than a $100+ rack setup. |
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly I'm only doing it because it's an excuse to Tig something. I don't have one of those weak racks either. My baja doesn't see that kind of abuse nor need for rack and pinions. It's a poser daily driver pretty much. Doesn't mean I can't have fun fixing it up a bit, though.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian wrote: |
| I used 3/4 and just welded it. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the middle and just shooting some weld into that. Just remember to keep it long |
Ok, your's was the one I was looking at that had me confused.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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superpro56
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Joined: July 25, 2012
Posts: 206
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| LOL, I got no issue with somebody modifying their ride, that's more than half the fun sometimes. I was just curious if you were worried about finding the next weakest link or if you were just wanting to bulletproof your ride. |
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oldschool5er
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Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 804
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Not sure what tie rods you have but I hammered in (interference fit) some cold rolled round stock. Beveling the edges helped a lot. Picture shows round stock ~75% pounded in.
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Old front sway bar cut to length works also if you are using a stock tie rod |
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, admittedly, most of what I do will make no sense to most sensible types.
From the sound of it though, the next link might actually be the rod end. I never ran one long enough to wear one out though. This baja I have now has the same ripped sand encaked ends that I bought it with last spring and I put nearly 4K miles on it since then of mixed terrain action. Prolly avoiding an inevitable fold up by replacing everything before this season.
I'm contemplating leaving the shorter rod alone now that you mention it though. It is so short it might be a waste of time doing anything with it.
Although, a chance to damage my dermis with some arcin' and sparkin' is never a waste. 
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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ORANGECRUSHer
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| oldschool5er wrote: |
Old front sway bar cut to length works also if you are using a stock tie rod |
never had my hands on a sway-bar.
btw four foot of 1/2" rod from Lowe's costs $5 and fits for the inside.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| superpro56 wrote: |
| Why the trend in beefing up tie-rods? To me, all systems need a weak link in order to save the more expensive part, in this case easily deformed tie-rods in lieu of a rack. How much punishment are you guys putting your rigs through? I opted for aluminum hex tubing with heims, my thinking was it would be easier to replace a $10 piece of aluminum rather than a $100+ rack setup. |
There always will be a weakest link, but with the right collection of parts, you may break your neck from a massive blow to the frot end before you wreck the parts. Proven reliability: a good rack, beefed up tie rods, combo spindles, IH or Ford rod ends. Ask the racers. Catastrophic failures are very rare with this set up.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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^Van,
Having rebuilt one yourself would you suggest taking apart a steering box to clean it up and powder coat. I'm concerned about finding replacement seals or some other unforeseen Murphy's law that decides to fall in my lap.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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I would take it apart. It isn't hard to do. Both of the VW boxes are very simple and work pretty much the same, just one has a ball/socket sector and the other a roller. The adjusting mechanisms are slightly different as well, but no big issue. Who knows what you will find when you open it up. It is always good to clean the crap out after 40-50 some odd years in my pinion. Odds are the internal mechanics are still good, especially if you have the old large shaft worm and sector boxes from the mid 50's -'61. The '61 and newer roller style boxes are a little weaker because of the pin that holds the roller in place, but they are still pretty tough for a box of their size.
As for the murphy law, if it worked fine when you took it apart, you shouldn't have any problems. They really are pretty fool proof.
Measure the seals you have and get new ones from Applied Industrial Supply on PawPaw Drive just east of 112th Ave off Chicago Drive. It's the grey and blue building on the North side of the road as you drive east.That is where I got my new seals from. Only cost a few bucks a seal. For the top cover gasket I just got rubber/fiber gasket paper from a local auto parts store, traced the old one out, and cut it out. A little Permatex Ultra Black on the cover and body, slapped the gasket on, and bolted the cover down.
Google map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Applied+Industri...52ab554667
Great place for finding seals and bearings of pretty much any size and shape you could ever want.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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ORANGECRUSHer
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Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: West Coast (Michigan's)
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no1clyde
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2013
Posts: 365
Location: Elko Nv.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I am hard on things but I bent my long one 3 times before I sleeved it and since then I have not had a problem. I use mine off road 95% of the time though.
Ed |
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oldschool5er
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Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 804
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| no1clyde wrote: |
Maybe I am hard on things but I bent my long one 3 times before I sleeved it and since then I have not had a problem. I use mine off road 95% of the time though.
Ed |
Your not hard on it, it doesn't take much to bend stock off road. In class 11 we had used cut up sway bar inside because it was the only way to beef them as we were not allowed external sleeves at the time but even with that torsion material that was stronger than mild steel it still would bend pretty easy. In 5/1600 we found as we went to chrome moly tie rods and ford ends the weak link was the stock steering box even when it was beefed up for racing. I had to carry a spare on the other side of the beam because I knew I would have to swap it out before the end of a Baja race. The only thing that worked was as Van said when the rules allowed us to use a rack was when the issues stopped. Class 11 even to this day still has problems with the tie-rods, steering box etc. as there is always teams trying to get the rules modified to allow a better set up. But class 11 is a stock class and it probably will stay that way I hope. |
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