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DAV!D
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msewalson
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DAV!D
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Joined: September 10, 2013
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Location: EL CAMINO
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 Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I saw the 2nd one already, thought I had it in my list but guess I missed it. I hadn't seen the first one though.
Thanks!
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86 Syncro Build - Ecotec Motor Swap - Pop Top Conversion - Camper Build & Syncro Conversion |
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Jon_slider
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Joined: April 11, 2007
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Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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DAV!D
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Joined: September 10, 2013
Posts: 979
Location: EL CAMINO
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Ok thanks, I remember seeing that one some time ago but I guess I missed it in my search. I picked up a beat to hell Westy to use as my donor. I think the only straight body panel on the thing is the roof.. 
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86 Syncro Build - Ecotec Motor Swap - Pop Top Conversion - Camper Build & Syncro Conversion |
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Howesight
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Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi David:
My 1986 syncro was a tin top that I converted to pop-top. I did not use the method requiring removal of the entire roof. Instead, the donor was used to supply a clip that overlapped the existing sheet metal right under the place where the Westfalia aluminum strips that hold the tent in place are fastened. This has the bonus effect of covering any imperfections in the lap area whether you choose to bond the metal together (I did), or to weld the lap area and grind smooth.
It is not complicated to get a good structural join on the westfalia top beam at the "C" pillar. You just need to leave enough extra material in that area when you remove the tin-top "C" pillar beam and then apply your Origami skills to fold the extra material into a box section and flanges to accept the Westfalia beam.
One very important thing to note: If you have to add metal at any point for strengthening, the mild steel sheet metal you get from a metal supplier is nowhere near as strong as the automotive grade steel used in the Vanagon and Westfalia. Try to use metal cuts from your donor in such cases.
There are a couple things I might do differently on a re-do, but they are minor. The icing on the cake is that you only need to refinish and re-paint the portions of the roof that are visible when the pop-top is open. There is no need to refinish and repaint all the way from the windshield to the rear window.
One important lesson learned: CAREFULLY cover all glass from welding spit. It permanently marks the glass.
If my approach interests you, PM me. Sadly, I have very few photos.
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DAV!D
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Joined: September 10, 2013
Posts: 979
Location: EL CAMINO
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Howesight wrote: |
Hi David:
My 1986 syncro was a tin top that I converted to pop-top. I did not use the method requiring removal of the entire roof. Instead, the donor was used to supply a clip that overlapped the existing sheet metal right under the place where the Westfalia aluminum strips that hold the tent in place are fastened. This has the bonus effect of covering any imperfections in the lap area whether you choose to bond the metal together (I did), or to weld the lap area and grind smooth.
It is not complicated to get a good structural join on the westfalia top beam at the "C" pillar. You just need to leave enough extra material in that area when you remove the tin-top "C" pillar beam and then apply your Origami skills to fold the extra material into a box section and flanges to accept the Westfalia beam.
One very important thing to note: If you have to add metal at any point for strengthening, the mild steel sheet metal you get from a metal supplier is nowhere near as strong as the automotive grade steel used in the Vanagon and Westfalia. Try to use metal cuts from your donor in such cases.
There are a couple things I might do differently on a re-do, but they are minor. The icing on the cake is that you only need to refinish and re-paint the portions of the roof that are visible when the pop-top is open. There is no need to refinish and repaint all the way from the windshield to the rear window.
One important lesson learned: CAREFULLY cover all glass from welding spit. It permanently marks the glass.
If my approach interests you, PM me. Sadly, I have very few photos. |
I did a rough clean up on the donor today (it was a horrible mess) and was looking at the roof on it, but is there really much difference in the actual skin assuming the hole on the tin top was cut exactly like the Westy?
It seems almost like the curve of the roof is the same, the only major differences being the pillar beam being flat and of course the center section being build for the pop top. Other than that the roof line really does seem the same to me., but of course I'm just eye balling it.
How did you do the rear hinges?
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86 Syncro Build - Ecotec Motor Swap - Pop Top Conversion - Camper Build & Syncro Conversion |
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SyncroChrick
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Joined: January 10, 2005
Posts: 1010
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Howesight wrote: |
Hi David:
My 1986 syncro was a tin top that I converted to pop-top. I did not use the method requiring removal of the entire roof. Instead, the donor was used to supply a clip that overlapped the existing sheet metal right under the place where the Westfalia aluminum strips that hold the tent in place are fastened. This has the bonus effect of covering any imperfections in the lap area whether you choose to bond the metal together (I did), or to weld the lap area and grind smooth.
It is not complicated to get a good structural join on the westfalia top beam at the "C" pillar. You just need to leave enough extra material in that area when you remove the tin-top "C" pillar beam and then apply your Origami skills to fold the extra material into a box section and flanges to accept the Westfalia beam.
One very important thing to note: If you have to add metal at any point for strengthening, the mild steel sheet metal you get from a metal supplier is nowhere near as strong as the automotive grade steel used in the Vanagon and Westfalia. Try to use metal cuts from your donor in such cases.
There are a couple things I might do differently on a re-do, but they are minor. The icing on the cake is that you only need to refinish and re-paint the portions of the roof that are visible when the pop-top is open. There is no need to refinish and repaint all the way from the windshield to the rear window.
One important lesson learned: CAREFULLY cover all glass from welding spit. It permanently marks the glass.
If my approach interests you, PM me. Sadly, I have very few photos. |
fwiw, I was talking to a friend of mine who has done 9 pop-top conversions using all possible methods and that is also is preferred way of doing it. |
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DAV!D
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Joined: September 10, 2013
Posts: 979
Location: EL CAMINO
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| SyncroChrick wrote: |
| Howesight wrote: |
Hi David:
My 1986 syncro was a tin top that I converted to pop-top. I did not use the method requiring removal of the entire roof. Instead, the donor was used to supply a clip that overlapped the existing sheet metal right under the place where the Westfalia aluminum strips that hold the tent in place are fastened. This has the bonus effect of covering any imperfections in the lap area whether you choose to bond the metal together (I did), or to weld the lap area and grind smooth.
It is not complicated to get a good structural join on the westfalia top beam at the "C" pillar. You just need to leave enough extra material in that area when you remove the tin-top "C" pillar beam and then apply your Origami skills to fold the extra material into a box section and flanges to accept the Westfalia beam.
One very important thing to note: If you have to add metal at any point for strengthening, the mild steel sheet metal you get from a metal supplier is nowhere near as strong as the automotive grade steel used in the Vanagon and Westfalia. Try to use metal cuts from your donor in such cases.
There are a couple things I might do differently on a re-do, but they are minor. The icing on the cake is that you only need to refinish and re-paint the portions of the roof that are visible when the pop-top is open. There is no need to refinish and repaint all the way from the windshield to the rear window.
One important lesson learned: CAREFULLY cover all glass from welding spit. It permanently marks the glass.
If my approach interests you, PM me. Sadly, I have very few photos. |
fwiw, I was talking to a friend of mine who has done 9 pop-top conversions using all possible methods and that is also is preferred way of doing it. |
Trying to get a picture in my head of what they are doing with this method. Are they just cutting out the center secon of the Westy roof and then cutting out a slightly smaller hole in the tin top roof, then laying the Westy roof on top of that?
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DAV!D
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Joined: September 10, 2013
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Location: EL CAMINO
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
As a casual observer of this thread.
What I think Howesight is saying is that he cut the donor roof along the screw holes for the metal tent retaining strips to the roof.
He then cut the tin top roof to be a tad smaller, probably the inside edge of the retaining strips?
Then he welded the donor on top of the cut tin top. All of the welding is now covered by the tent retaining strips.
This is a common way to graft two fold fabric sunroofs onto beetles, cover the seams with the mounting hardware.
Using this method you don't have any laborious roof leveling to do either inside or outside of the graft.
Dave |
I think I get the idea of how this is done, but I'd have to see a picture to know for certain. I guess the remaining question for that method, would how are the rear hindges bolted into place. Are they just bolted from inside the van and if so is there anything done to strengthen the mounting point?
I'm assuming the graft is something like this one from the "My westfalia pop top transplant" thread.. Looks like the cut section is welded on top of the existing tin top roof as described.
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jstar89crx
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Joined: September 19, 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Bellingham WA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Here is the link to my poptop conversion thread which has the link to my Picasa photo stream on my conversion. It shows how I used the backing plates from the donor for poptop hinge attachment.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=528700&highlight=
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86 Syncro, weekender carat interior, the rest is bone stock for now
SOLD:91 Westy, BEW TDI with VNT17 Turbo, water cooled intercooler, Malone Tune, taller 3rd and 4th. |
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:29 am Post subject: |
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One of the questions was about the "small overlap method" using panel adhesive instead of welding. That appeals tho me. Also wondering if you can do gutter method using panel adhesive?
I am wondering if people who prefer the small overlap method are considering the amount of time to drill out all the spot welds. I'm ok taking the extra time drilling them out if that is the only downside tho doing it that way.
I have ruled out the full graft method and will cut just behind the rear hinges and under the poptop luggage rack in the front. Just trying to decide between small overlap or out to the gutters and whether I should use panel adhesive vs welds.
Thanks
Dave - working slow. |
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BavarianWrench
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Joined: January 18, 2004
Posts: 1045
Location: Oceans Edge
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I just did a swap exactly like that photo. I ended up cutting the roof almost exactly the same way as below. You need to go outside the portion that is covered by the trim holding down the tent to accommodate the sub roof mounted plate for the hinges. I would have done the entire graft process but there was rust in the rail of my donor. I used both panel adhesive and welds. It is sturdy. This job is a lot to tackle no matter how you cut it, pun intended. This is not for every rookie out there. I have now done the entire swap at the rails. Entire roof at the spot welds. Now this modified swap. I hate drilling spot welds. The roof rail method is the easiest. For maintaining an original crash/crumple zone, I will not do the rails again.
| DAV!D wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
As a casual observer of this thread.
What I think Howesight is saying is that he cut the donor roof along the screw holes for the metal tent retaining strips to the roof.
He then cut the tin top roof to be a tad smaller, probably the inside edge of the retaining strips?
Then he welded the donor on top of the cut tin top. All of the welding is now covered by the tent retaining strips.
This is a common way to graft two fold fabric sunroofs onto beetles, cover the seams with the mounting hardware.
Using this method you don't have any laborious roof leveling to do either inside or outside of the graft.
Dave |
I think I get the idea of how this is done, but I'd have to see a picture to know for certain. I guess the remaining question for that method, would how are the rear hindges bolted into place. Are they just bolted from inside the van and if so is there anything done to strengthen the mounting point?
I'm assuming the graft is something like this one from the "My westfalia pop top transplant" thread.. Looks like the cut section is welded on top of the existing tin top roof as described.
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:29 am Post subject: |
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BavarianWrench, what did you do in the hinge area? I believe the photo from above is Pedro's conversion and I don't think he was quite able to give the details on that part of the task. I realize that many have gotten away without utilizing the factory hinge mounts and the step pressed into the camper sheet metal. Looking at the above picture it would appear that the camper hinge area could not overlap cleanly and that the tin top would need to be "adjusted" or cut to allow the section to be glued and if cut seam welded. Thanks mark
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BavarianWrench
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Joined: January 18, 2004
Posts: 1045
Location: Oceans Edge
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Hope this is helpful. I snapped a few photos to show a buddy what I was up too.
Make sure the wood is installed in the top and lines up. I heard a story a dude welded it in and had the roof ring compressed then the wood didn't fit. Oops! |
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: |
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So at least the hinge base area is seam welded and the of the outer frame is glued forward of the hinges? I ask because I am interested in doing the minimal amount of welding. Welding sounds simple, but with warpage, contamination, burn through, later chances of rusting etc, I can see the value in a quality adhesive for this project.
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davevickery
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Joined: July 16, 2005
Posts: 2887
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BavarianWrench wrote: |
| I just did a swap exactly like that photo. I ended up cutting the roof almost exactly the same way as below. You need to go outside the portion that is covered by the trim holding down the tent to accommodate the sub roof mounted plate for the hinges. I would have done the entire graft process but there was rust in the rail of my donor. I used both panel adhesive and welds. It is sturdy. This job is a lot to tackle no matter how you cut it, pun intended. This is not for every rookie out there. I have now done the entire swap at the rails. Entire roof at the spot welds. Now this modified swap. I hate drilling spot welds. The roof rail method is the easiest. For maintaining an original crash/crumple zone, I will not do the rails again. |
I think the wording is confusing me. The orange transplant photo is 100% welded and the seams cut to fit, no overlap right?
There was another photo showing the overlap method on a different van.
If you used panel adhesive, doesn't that mean you overlapped the edge?
I don't understand what the difference between these 2 statements is: "I have now done the entire swap at the rails. Entire roof at the spot welds", isn't that the same thing?
Are you saying you would not go out to the rails again, because you think it is stronger to do the overlap method or just quicker? Sorry it sounds like something important to understand here and I am still a bit confused.
Thanks
Dave |
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Howesight
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Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hi David:
I used the same method as Bavarian wrench, with a slight difference on the cut near the scissors hinge mounting area. I took BW's pic and marked a yellow line where my cut was different.
I also did not use the Westfalia "bracket" which has the M6 welded nuts which accept the scissor hinge bolts. Instead, I made up one myself out of sturdier 0.125" thick by 1.25" wide mild steel with nuts welded on the backside. This was easier to weld and did not require me to mess around with cutting out and trimming the donor piece.
When you cut out the donor piece, it should have attached to it about 1" of the angle flange piece that is vertical. This needs to be ground clean so it can be welded to the same area in the tin-top recipient. The end result is that this flange will be doubled up, which strengthens it, for those who care about such things. I just did it that way because it was easiest - - the added strength was a bonus.
A couple very important notes, now that I am recalling more of the details:
1. After rough cutting the sheet metal on the recipient van, but before you cut the recipient's cross-beam, carefully measure the side to side distance at several points and record it.
2. When you install the donor section, you will need to spread out the top flanges in the recipient. This spreading is only the amount needed to account for the now doubled width of the aforementioned vertical flange portion, which, in total, if I recall correctly, was less than 1/8th of an inch.
3. This will not make your van pull to one side when driving. 
4. I cut the donor piece half wy between the "C" pillar beam and the back of the clip. The reason is that although the recipient van can easily be widened, there was no way I could lengthen the space into which the clip was to go, so I had to section out of it approximately 1/8" to 5/32" IIRC.
5. That was enough of a cut to require me to cut a similar amount off the front-to-back dimension of the plywood in the upper berth bed.
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BavarianWrench
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Joined: January 18, 2004
Posts: 1045
Location: Oceans Edge
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the confusion. This was the first top swap I was involved in. My friends van, my backyard. Entire roof at pillars.
My second swap. This one was for me and I owned it for almost ten years before selling it. This was the entire roof tin removed at the spot welds.
Current van is the photos above. It is still a lot of welding. I welded continuos from in front of the hinge mount area to the back, across the entire rear and forward of the other hinge. Several hundred spot welds on the inner lip of the entire ring that supports the roof structure, then also tacked a bunch of welds around the rest of the top, as well as using overlap with body glue. I chose to cut around the hinges where the seal from the fiberglass hits the paint. There is always some scuffing and dirt there when up and figured it would disguise any of my imperfections! |
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