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The Ultimate Syncro Big Tire/Gearing-is going big worth it?
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Syncroweekender
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Bridgestone Dueler A/T Revo 225/70R15 in my clamshell. According to the specs I found it is a bit smaller in diameter than the 215/75R15 BFG (27.4” vs 27.8”) but it is wider (9.1” vs 8.4”). I cut the clamshell pivot brackets off the top of the cross-member and had them welded on the bottom side. Then I pounded down the top of the box section (in front of the big tube) that the brackets are welded to in order to make room for the tire, cut the back edge of the clamshell off so it would pivot and ground a bit off the lower flange of the frame rails. I also had to use a spacer and a longer bolt in the front to close the clamshell. My tire fits pretty close to the frame and the steering shaft. It takes some trial and error to get the tire in the right spot. I strap the tire to the clamshell once it is in the right place so it doesn’t move on me and hit the steering shaft.

I could do a bit bigger diameter tire but I think it would probably have to be skinnier than my tire. I could take more off the lower flange of the frame rails but I think the back edge of a bigger tire would sit higher on the cross-member which reduces the clearance to the steering shaft.

Here a couple of pictures. Note that the clamshell pivot brackets sit lower than the cross-member.
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
I see that BFG is going to be making the new T/A KO2 in a strong 215/65R16 size soon


excellent!
Maybe you could share a pic of how you modify your clamshell to fit your spare.

The 215x65x16 is a 27" D rated tire, 6% taller than stock, is 2 pounds heavier (stronger construction) than the C rated 28"diam, 215x70x16, which is 10% taller than stock

The 215/65R16 has 1/2" less ground clearance than 215x70x16 ( the x65 has a slight clearance disadvantage offroad, but the x65 has a power and gearing advantage, better acceleration and torque than the x70).

For reference compared to stock of 25.5"
215x65x16= 27" (6% tall) D Rated
215x70x16= 28" (10% tall) C Rated
225x75x16= 29.3" (15% tall) E Rated
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That info shows the tire to be slightly larger in all dimensions, not just diameter. As I said the 215/75R15 is a very tight squeeze so larger in all dimensions isn't going to fit the same in the front spare well. In any case I see that BFG is going to be making the new T/A KO2 in a strong 215/65R16 size soon so that should solve my spare well issues.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=B...p;i1_Qty=5

Mark

clift_d wrote:
According to the manufacturer's info, the BFG ATs that we have fitted in 215/70 R16 are only 0.2" bigger than the 215/75 R15 size in the same tyre, so I shouldn't have thought you'll find much issue with them if the R15 size already fits.
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clift_d
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
I have 215/65R16 in the spare well of a couple of my 2wd vans. For Syncros I would like to use 215/70R16 but only if I can make the spare fit where it belongs. I have been carrying 215/75R15 in there in my Syncros for 20 years and it is a very tight squeeze. I don't mind a little cutting and welding in non-vital locations if that will get 215/70R16 in there.

Mark


According to the manufacturer's info, the BFG ATs that we have fitted in 215/70 R16 are only 0.2" bigger than the 215/75 R15 size in the same tyre, so I shouldn't have thought you'll find much issue with them if the R15 size already fits.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pinion crown would have more teeth sharing the load with a higher number. In other words, more teeth meshed at one time as it turns the ring gear. I get what you are saying though.
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Waldi
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
In theory to fit 4 more teeth to the ring gear since the diameter remains the same, the teeth would need to be physically smaller in dimension to fit 38 teeth.


With this theorie, the 6,16 should be the best. Which it ist not.
The 6 teeth on the pinion are bigger than the 7.
It is not the quantity of steel that makes it stronger, it is the time and torque per teeth.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 215/65R16 in the spare well of a couple of my 2wd vans. For Syncros I would like to use 215/70R16 but only if I can make the spare fit where it belongs. I have been carrying 215/75R15 in there in my Syncros for 20 years and it is a very tight squeeze. I don't mind a little cutting and welding in non-vital locations if that will get 215/70R16 in there.

Mark
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noganav
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Yes, that size matches up very well with 5.43 as does the size 215/75R15 that is very close to the same diameter.

As an aside. I have long wondered if anyone has managed to put 215/70R16 into the front spare well? If so, what was needed? I have put lots of 215/75R15 spares in there with mods.

Mark

clift_d wrote:
noganav wrote:
215x70x16. The sweet spot.


Absolutely! We have BFG ATs in that size and they give us a cruise speed of around 65mph cruise at approx 2900rpm with our 5.43 final output ratio. Perfect.


I'm going to try that soon. I've got the VanCafe carrier, just haven't messed around with it yet. I thought you had done it already which is what made me want to give it a try! Laughing
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that size matches up very well with 5.43 as does the size 215/75R15 that is very close to the same diameter.

As an aside. I have long wondered if anyone has managed to put 215/70R16 into the front spare well? If so, what was needed? I have put lots of 215/75R15 spares in there with mods.

Mark

clift_d wrote:
noganav wrote:
215x70x16. The sweet spot.


Absolutely! We have BFG ATs in that size and they give us a cruise speed of around 65mph cruise at approx 2900rpm with our 5.43 final output ratio. Perfect.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

noganav wrote:
215x70x16. The sweet spot.


Absolutely! We have BFG ATs in that size and they give us a cruise speed of around 65mph cruise at approx 2900rpm with our 5.43 final output ratio. Perfect.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rjhdog wrote:
This is interesting.
How many miles are we talking on your trannies paired with H6's Dylan? Do you know what tire size you run on them?



insyncro wrote:
Waldi wrote:
insyncro wrote:
4.86 R&P are the strongest and that is why I use them.


Did i miss something ?
In my opinion the 5,43 is the "strongest"
Same teeth on the pinion but more on the ring.

I drive 205/80-16 with 100hp AAZ, 4,85x0,82 with empty van.

With loaded van 215/75-15
and with trailer 215/65-16, which are a bit smaler than the 185-14


Less material = weaker
Just my opinion and my H6s, all with 200+ HP have not had any trans related issues in many many miles...all 4.86.


Interestingly enough, my first H6, EG33 has over 100,000 on the conversion, Small Car parts initially with adapter plate to date the build and now RJES with 240mm flywheel and clutch pack.
The locker had 140,000 on it and was never opened when the Syncro was converted, 1991 Syncro base model.
So total miles on a non rebuilt, 4.86 R&P + stock gearing trans....240,000 currently.
When I started on going conversations with Boston Bob and Daryl many many years ago, we discussed this van's transformation and one thing was evident from day one and all three involved...Swepco in the trans and momentum driving, also a topic we discussed and all practiced, would keep the transmission from coming apart at the seams.

This transmission sees limited summer miles now and has my first attempt at a trans fluid cooler attached, it works well.

My vans have seen most available tire sizes since my rim collection is vast.
I have never counted BenTs collection, but from memory he has a bunch.
He inspired me to start finding the more rare rims and collect those.
I love 16"s, own 17", 18" sets, but keep coming back to 15s and really enjoying them and 215/75/15 tires.
To be even more specific and try to answer the question posted, R9 ET23 with BFG Mud Terrain or All Terrain are really my most preferred for everyday use on a Syncro van, WBX or larger.
I see 50/50, pavement/dirt roads, varying conditions, tow an aluminum 12' utility trailer often and average 40mph.

The huge 16" tires I have owned, Duratracs, Nokian, Mud & All Terrain BFGs, Geolanders, Khumos....225/75/16, 235/75/16...Bottomline, I do not need a tire that large, nor all of the other changes one must make to match up.

So to stay in line with the original question asked, no going big is not worth it in my experiences.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In theory to fit 4 more teeth to the ring gear since the diameter remains the same, the teeth would need to be physically smaller in dimension to fit 38 teeth.
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Rjhdog
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting.
How many miles are we talking on your trannies paired with H6's Dylan? Do you know what tire size you run on them?



insyncro wrote:
Waldi wrote:
insyncro wrote:
4.86 R&P are the strongest and that is why I use them.


Did i miss something ?
In my opinion the 5,43 is the "strongest"
Same teeth on the pinion but more on the ring.

I drive 205/80-16 with 100hp AAZ, 4,85x0,82 with empty van.

With loaded van 215/75-15
and with trailer 215/65-16, which are a bit smaler than the 185-14


Less material = weaker
Just my opinion and my H6s, all with 200+ HP have not had any trans related issues in many many miles...all 4.86.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waldi wrote:
insyncro wrote:
4.86 R&P are the strongest and that is why I use them.


Did i miss something ?
In my opinion the 5,43 is the "strongest"
Same teeth on the pinion but more on the ring.

I drive 205/80-16 with 100hp AAZ, 4,85x0,82 with empty van.

With loaded van 215/75-15
and with trailer 215/65-16, which are a bit smaler than the 185-14


Less material = weaker
Just my opinion and my H6s, all with 200+ HP have not had any trans related issues in many many miles...all 4.86.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this and it made me curious about choosing a 4th gear...
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Its brake specific fuel consumption for the ej22. Couldn't find a chart for the ej25. Assuming we're pushing way harder on the gas than a more aerodynamic forester/outback the chart should still apply for fuel consumption at least for vans with an ej22. Wouldn't we just be reading it from a different part of the chart (the more torque part)?

I would think you'd want to overlap that 180 at the top of the chart with where you get the least aerodynamic drag if you want better milage, or at least the speed zone where you drive the most. I could be totally misunderstanding this, but I think I might have just made an argument for stock gearing in 4th.
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Waldi
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
4.86 R&P are the strongest and that is why I use them.


Did i miss something ?
In my opinion the 5,43 is the "strongest"
Same teeth on the pinion but more on the ring.

I drive 205/80-16 with 100hp AAZ, 4,85x0,82 with empty van.

With loaded van 215/75-15
and with trailer 215/65-16, which are a bit smaler than the 185-14
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Surfy Murphy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Down the rabbit hole and back out again.

I'm leaning towards something like Christopher's setup after the pinion discussion. 5.43 with stock 3rd and 4th or maybe .81 4th. That gets me the stronger 7 tooth pinion gear, and pretty close to stock for my current 225/70 r16, not too bad for 225/75 R16. Does anyone have any suggestions for freeway cruising RPM with the EJ25?

Here's the van with 225/70 R16 Geolanders, Audi Allroads. It'll be Metallic Orly Blue in the next couple weeks. Bottom is sprayed with Wurth undercoating, inside with lizard skin sound and thermal. Dave from Slawbuilt in South Jersey is doing the paint for me in his free time and I've taken forever on choosing a color so it's been an all winter project. I'm really looking forward to getting my van back.
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noganav
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

215x70x16. The sweet spot.
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Jon_slider
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rjhdog wrote:
suby 3.0 h6. (212 ponies!) No tranny issues after 70k miles!


substituting horsepower for leverage, a devils advocate position

For sake of illustration, lets visualize Vanagon gearing changes using the model of a seesaw.

Assume that the stock setup has both sides of the seesaw, beyond the midpoint, at equal distances, like a normal seesaw. Lets say this equal lever arm length condition is the baseline from which to gauge changes.

Now lets take the example of using 225x75x16 tires which are 15% taller than stock, and overlay that on the seesaw model, by making one end of the seesaw 15% Longer than the other one.

In that scenario it will take 15% more weight on the short end, to move any given load on the long end.

Imagine the motor is on the short end, the tires are on the long end Smile

so, for sake of illustration, when we use 15% tall gearing, we are asking our motor to push 15% harder. This increases heat, pressure, load, and potentially increases wear. However, if the nut at the wheel is properly adjusted, so they do not use excessive applications of power, all will be well, for at least 70k miles of Joy, before more wallet must be applied Smile
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Rjhdog
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love it Jon.
Thanks for your kind and wise words. I will keep it as is...
Cheers,



Jon_slider wrote:
Rjhdog wrote:
For what it's worth.
I run 225 75/16 bfg a/t with steel mefro wheels with stock 4.86 gearing. I have 16" trailing arms with a suby 3.0 h6. No tranny issues after 70k miles!

It drives great on highway and does just fine for non-extreme off-road. …

Not sure if my higher horsepower engine makes a difference in all of this, but I am happy with my combo…

The one thing I would love to improve would be gas mileage but I would likely sacrifice some things if I changed tire size.


thanks for the very interesting, to me, exploration
Your gearing is 15% tall

at 70mph you're at 3400 rpm, and you have 212 horsepower to make up for being 600 rpm lower on the power band than stock gearing.

offroad your minimum speed is 15% faster than stock

Your motor has 6 cylinders, 212 horsepower, no turbo, so no lag, and tons of low end torque in a boxer opposed design, and it fits higher up, with more ground clearance.. Whats not to love? There are reasons why people who are in the know, go with the H6, you scored dude! Whats your vans name?

Recently I learned from Hans and smiro, that there IS a configuration of tall gearing that does increase fuel mileage, but it involves things that don't happen in a syncro.. Hans says tall ring and pinion with small tires, increases mileage with automatic Two Wheel Drive transmissions.

other Size Considerations
A 225x75x16 weighs 50% more than the 215, and on a longer lever. Taller tires reduce gas mileage by increasing air under the vehicle on highway, and increase ride height offroad, which is good, but also raises center of gravity, which affects handling and body roll on highway curves. 225 tires being wider also create more drag on highway, which is not good, otoh more traction offroad, which is good.

the 225 BFG is 29.3", the 215 is 28". the 225 is also built with stronger sidewalls and higher load rating, hence the added 11 pounds weight. strong is good offroad. 11 pounds heavier tires is bad for highway fuel mileage.

Since you have proven that your motor and tire and gearing are working to take you to awesome places, Im making mental note that 15% tall gearing with 212 horsepower works great for family travel and mild and safe offroading to wonderful adventures. No frame twisting, boulder hopping, Hells Revenge, sort of setup. Might not do Truck Hill at Syncrofest, but then, who needs to risk rolling a family wagon at a 4wheeling park anyway?

More like take my Whole Family to Baja and Blow Everybodys Mind with how Awesome it is to have a reliable, powerful motor, in a well built, fully outfitted, expedition syncro, and then actually Use It to do all kinds of Super Cool Stuff, and post pictures on the internet, and go to syncrofest and tell all my friends about it, and, Yes!!! this is working!


Knowing that the OP currently runs 18% tall gearing and it works for his needs, and you happily run 15% tall gearing. For your needs, leave your transaxle gearing stock, slap on those 225x75x16 BFGs and Post Selfies in Baja! It does not matter which motor you have. If you are comfortable with 15% tall gearing in any motor, your rpm and gearing speed feedback loop will be the same.

So at this point I do not think the OP, for his driving style, needs new ring and pinions, does not need to change 3rd and 4th. You made a great choice, the subie 2.5 has 170 horses. Just run it with your current tires and transaxle.. its perfect, youre already used to that setup. Dont change anything Smile
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