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Terry Kay
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 Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Dave,
Here's the issue with the scrawny Vanagon AC system for the size of the uninsulated vehicle.
The Van is a rolling greenhouse, and that sanden will be running all of the time, it will never be able to cool the van down and keep it this way with the sun baking on the roof, and into the glass areas.
This is the biggest reason big is better.
The larger compressor will be able to cope with the lop sided cooling / radiated heat
equation.
I'll go here and you'll understand better.
Cadillac-- from 53-54 to the late 80's ,prior the the weight chopping issues.
One Frigidaire compreesor was installed for coupes, convertables, ambulances, hearses,& limousines, and cooled them all down all with ease.
Olds, Pontiac, Buick, Chevrolet the same way, with the same big cfm compressor.
Convertables & wagons were the biggest challenge --same with ambulances & black limos larger Frigidaire cfm compressor did the job,& did it well.
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djkeev
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Ans so did Caddy limos & ambulances Dave.
One magumbo GM / Frigidaire compressor, two evaporators.
Big volume vehicles, big AC capacity as the Vanagon should have had when they spit them outa the door.
Weight savings was the idea here.
"Just make it work"
My van blows plenty of 36-37 degree air.
It just runs all of the time when it's hot.
No rest or free wheeling as you suggested in a prior post.
This is why the engineers designed as an air recycling set up in a Vanagon.
There is no way it could intake outside fresh air and make it cold enough
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Oh Geee........
I'm glad that I took all that time to type out the models that fit our 84 to early 86 units! 
Dave |
shineola, social embarrassment #456.  thanks for posting a link to the vendor that does have them. I didn't see that option on the Vintageair website for the rear exit 709's. |
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djkeev
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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So the Vanagon AC issues to you are not so much that the Compressor is not matched to the Evaporator and Condenser but rather that the entire system is undersized for the cubic feet that it needs to cool off.
This is probably why Behr offered the two Evaporator system, one under the rear bench seat and one behind the Glove box.
So it makes sense that if the system is too small to cool off the Box that it would work non Stop.
But..... This doesn't mean the compressor is too small for the Evaporator. The Compressor is working just fine blowing out 37* air. It is absolutely doing its job.
The problem is that the thermostat never stops saying
"More, More, give me MORE!"
No matter how big of a compressor you hooked up to the Evaporator it would run non stop because the Evaporator cannot keep up with the need.
You could install a Mack truck compressor and you'd get no more cold than you do right now........ Though truth be told. Semis often use our tiny little 508 (SD5) Sanden compressors. 
So, no compressor issue here at all.
A Bigger unit will do squat to cool down the interior. You won't be pushing out air much colder than 37*!
IMHO any compressor that can deliver a consistent supply of gas to provide a never ending stream of 37* air is absolutely sized properly and doing its job.
Not for this thread but now we get into the need for a second in dash Evaporator.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=234572
You cannot blame a compressor being too small on the Overall short comings of the entire vehicles interior cooling design.
Truth be told,
The unit as designed works superbly as linked components.
You obviously feel that The entire unit is simply too small for the space........
You are probably correct.
But......
Bottom line........
NOT the compressors fault.
Dave
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djkeev
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kamzcab86
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Steve M. wrote: |
Terry,
Are they making a 709 with the rear connections? I thought I had seen it before, but maybe it was a Chinese knockoff? |
Oh Geee........
I'm glad that I took all that time to type out the models that fit our 84 to early 86 units!
The four best options are indeed listed a few posts above. ^^^^ two SD5 (508) and two SD7 (709) models |
Except, if you look at the Vintage Air catalog page for SD7, it shows a serp belt pulley for the rear exit 709. So, don't buy a 709 based only on what Vintage Air shows in their catalog.
For the record, I took a look at the new 709 Sanden compressor in my van. It is Model #U4497. The details (since Sanden's catalog doesn't have individual page links):
Compressor Family: SD7H15
Style: HD
Mount Type: Ear 8 Long
Ear ID: 83.3
Refrigerant: R134A
Displacement: 155.00
Rotation Direction: CW
Oil Qty (cc): 300
Cylinder Head: SJ
Port Angle: H
Port Clocking: Rear
Head Port Style: O-Ring
Rotor Size: 132
Rotor Groove: A2
Gauge Line to First Groove: 23.80
Gauge Line to Middle Groove: 0.00
Gauge Line to End Groove: 39.55
Coil Voltage: 12
Connector: 2 Wire Ford E7EB-14A464-DA W/ Wedge
Clutch Service Set: 4704-9931
Coil Service Set: Not Available
Cylinder Head Service Set: 7738-9630
http://sanden.com/productlibrary/schematics/4497.pdf
http://sanden.com/productlibrary/manuals/SD_Service_Guide_Rev_2.pdf
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that, I knew they made one for a dual belt. the things are so interchangeable per end usage the people keeping track of the inventory are probably getting therapy! |
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djkeev
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Note: This is for the 709 (SD7) series Compressor
The 7 Groove pulley is a PV7 clutch #EC-119PV71LA
The two groove pulley you need is an A2 #EC-125A21XJ
The rear exit cover is has 7/8-14UNF and 3/4-16UNF ports.
Two styles of this, shallow and deep.
The deep one is a KD cover
The shallow one is a KG cover
As I read it, the compressor families are identical. By That I mean the SD7H15.
You cannot go slipping in an SD7H13 or an SD7L series unit.
It's a mix/match deal that creates a huge inventory! But, PAG oil is Hydroscopic, each unit is sealed, once you open it, the oil begins to degrade. Because of this you can't have a body in stock to which you fasten clutches and rear covers and put they go! It,s just not that easy.
You can purchase each and every cover plate option separately as well as the clutch.
It is all very confusing but boils down to just a few units.
I Should mention that Kam has a newer unit, she has the new style ports, the SJ head.
It is a single plate with both pipes held on by a center bolt........
Dave
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djkeev
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Question Asked.......
WHY did VW switch to the 709 pump, even giving instructions on how to retrofit one?
VW did indeed upsize their AC pump when they redesigned the AC system in late 1986.
They installed the 510 series pump.
While I cannot find cc pumped per stroke I did find that it had a 9.8 cu in displacement,
much bigger than the 508 pumps 8.4 cu in displacement.
They "upgraded" to the 709 when the 510 was no longer manufactured. I am guessing that the 510 pumped a cc value very similar to the 709 that replaced it.
The question remains though, why did they upsize the pump? Were other components upsized as well?
I just read in the 1986 indroduction manual that they increased the refrigerant quantity to 52 ounces.
But.....
Up from what previous quantity!
Edit: 1985 Vanagon took 50.75 oz refrigerant, 8oz mineral oil
Dave
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
While your doodling out loud trying to figure out basic automotive refrigeration,
here's one big hint with the fault in what your working with.
Distance.
The evaporator is too far from the condensor for the pump that's moving it.
What do you think would function easier, more efficient?
A system where the compressor, condensor, dryer, & evaporator are all at max 4 ft.
apart, with a monster cfm compressor, or a set up that as least 20 ft. separating the condensor from the compressor,another 8 ft from the dryer to the evaporator, and maybe 6 to the compressor.
That's a lot of distance for just a medium duty compressor to be moving refrigerant in your heated rolling greenhouse midsummer.
Get the biggest compressor into that van that you can, & after you get done doing all the reading you can, get busy.
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kamzcab86
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I Should mention that Kam has a newer unit, she has the new style ports, the SJ head.
It is a single plate with both pipes held on by a center bolt........ |
And that's what all vans, from VIN HH-056819, came with (according to Bentley). The 709's have press-in fittings, while the earlier vans with the 510's have threaded fittings. So, if you have an older van and are retro-fitting to a 709, and don't want to bother with a DIY compressor build (pulley, plate, etc.), buy complete model U4497.
| djkeev wrote: |
| WHY did VW switch to the 709 pump, even giving instructions on how to retrofit one? |
Because the 510 was NLA from Sanden. The 709 superseded the 510 in VW's catalog, which then required swapping out the old 510 hoses because the 510 equipment won't work with the 709.
| djkeev wrote: |
They installed the 510 series pump.
While I cannot find cc pumped per stroke I did find that it had a 9.8 cu in displacement,
much bigger than the 508 pumps 8.4 cu in displacement.
They "upgraded" to the 709 when the 510 was no longer manufactured. I am guessing that the 510 pumped a cc value very similar to the 709 that replaced it. |
CC is merely the metric version of cubic inch. 
508 U9279 (replaced by 6631) specs
Displacement: 138 cc (8.4 cu. in.) per revolution
Cylinders: 5
PAG Oil: 100 cc
http://sanden.com/productlibrary/schematics/6631.pdf
510 specs
Displacement: 160.6 cc (9.8 cu. in.) per revolution
Cylinders: 5
PAG oil: 100 cc
(need model # from a Vanagon 510 to confirm displacement)
709 U4479 specs
Displacement: 154.9 cc (9.5 cu. in.) per revolution
Cylinders: 7
PAG oil: 240 cc
http://sanden.com/productlibrary/schematics/4497.pdf
http://www.gti16v.com/tb879503.htm
As for the refrigerant, R12 was not phased out until around 1994. So, all VW's up to that point came with R12. The 709 was not a R134a-specific compressor back then.
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1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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djkeev
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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What / where are the BTU ratings on these Sandens?
This is the big key to the compressors performance Dave.
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Forget that request Dave, I found the Sanden specs.
10,000 btu's @1000 rpm, requires 2.5 horses to run it.
18,000 btu's @ 2000 rpm, requires 4.5 horses to operate.
Not all the efficient for what it's got to cool.
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
Here's some facts you can chew on in compressor comparisons.
The compressor I've been talking about is a Delco / Frigidaire A-6 to be specific.
It puts out 27,000 btu's @ 2000 rpm's.
It puts out 42,000 btu's @ 4000 rpm's.
You can run it all day long without fear of overheating, it will function rotating in either direction.
It's 207 cc's
Your home AC set up is spec'ed about the same as this compressor.
And to put this in perfect perspective this is the same compressor GM used in the Corvair Greenbriar wagons, & Chevy & GMC Vans from the 60's into the 80's.
It cooled them down without much effort.
Now's all ya have to do is make some brackets--and you'll be looking for your union suit to drive in the summer--
Just an idea to make your AC system much more efficiant---and with this kind of BTU's you could easily run 3 evaporator's if ya wanted to.
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Howesight
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| Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hey TK and Dave:
My recommendation about not oversizing the compressor was 100% connected to the alleged 90 horsepower that a relatively low-mileage WBX wheezes out. With a Cadillac 500 cubic inch V8, even the mighty Harrison-Delco A6 compressor made no impact on acceleration or cruising of those big-bore beasts. They used that same compressor (and the whole Harrison CCOT system, for that matter) on the 110 horsepower Audi 5000 my wife used to drive in the '90's. You could definitely feel the compressor cycling on. In fact, the system used a compressor cut-off switch under the accelerator pedal to switch off AC at full-throttle - - so you could pass that slow-ass Vanagon.
My SVX has a large compressor - - with a variable displacement. I have not figured out a way to control the electronic system that controls the variable-pitch swash plate. So I run it "wide open" at maximum displacement. That's okay. I have 230 horsepower.
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djkeev
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djkeev
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Just to clairfy and please correct me if I am wrong........ Yeah, Inconcieveable I know!  ........ But......
On the older AC systems, pre mid year 1986 change .......Easily identified by the receiver/drier in the LF wheel well........ There are no electrical safety switches in the system.
You turn on the AC, the Compressor runs.
If the system is charged and functional..... You get cold air.
If the system is discharged..... You get warm air.
If there is a blockage downstream from the compressor, your line explodes.
But no matter what, the Compressor is spinning merrily fully believing that it is compressing a refrigeration gas.
There is no Compressor cycling controlled by a high pressure switch.... It is simply on when you turn on the AC switch you activate the compressor clutch.
I am guessing that the compressor being run dry without the benefit of the refrigerant to cool the pump, it would eventually over heat and seize up.
**********
On mid 1986 and Newer units.......
In the LR quarter panel there are limit switches as well as the electrical controls and fuses for the AC system.
This newer design does prevent the compressor from running in a low charge situation and shuts it off in a high charge situation.
This enables "down time" for the compressor. If the high pressure line is full, yet the expansion valve isn't calling for much compressed refrigerant, the compressor shuts off and waits until more pressurized refrigerant is needed......cycles.
The Reed valves in the compressor prevent pressure bleed back into the Compressor crank case and the Evaporator.
Correct?
Dave
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:07 am Post subject: |
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What year is your Van?>> 87 >>
<<What compressor are you running in your van that produces the 37* air that you mentioned earlier? >> Stock Sanden
<<Any other upgrades besides RedTek?>>
Yea--I cleaned the heck outa the interior of the lines, & compontents, removed the evaporator and blew 25 years of garbage it had been intaking for that long, plus the dried up & broken up black foam rubber, cleaned out the fins on the condensor that it had swallowing for it's entire life.
Dumped the old oil out of the compresser , filled it back up with new mineral oil.
Sucked the system down, let it sit all day , & that night--wanted to be sure it was all guten tite, put 2 oz. of oil in the lines, loaded it up with R-12 A, and I saw, got, had 37 degree's on my vent temp ac gauge.
Box fan on the condensor, 1500 rpm during the fill up.
The reason I'm bringing up a bigger cfm / btu pump, you have the opportunity right now to update that system right now so it works easier--youv'e got nothing right now, so I suggest walking up to the plate with all that you can do to allow the system to function as effortlessly as you can possible allow.
I brought up the Delco A-6 compressor only to show you how lame the compressor is in the Vanagons- in comparison.
I don't expect you to be manufacturing brackets to fit one of them.
But--seeing as how you are the master of distaster with projects, this most certainly would be doable--anything is possible just like your bizare heater box experiment or the cave & pave dash deal.
If anything is possible, I guess you can do it--
BTU's, the right refrigerant, and a squeaky clean system is the key to a cold van in the summer.
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