Shifting Problem, Stranger than Most

DuneSluggy

Hello all, just got back to rebuilding by buggy after the winter. I installed pedals and was ready to test drive the pan, when much to my dismay, I found that no matter what gear I shift into, the car only goes backward. I couldn't tell for sure but it seemed that the thrust was varying with different gear ratios for different shift positions, but the car was going in reverse. I'm am thinking this has something to do with the Hurst shifter that was installed by the PO who abandoned the project. After a significant amount of research here, I can't find anybody who has had this same issue. I'm hoping someone can chime in with info on how the reverse lockout is supposed to function, or tell me if there is something else majorly wrong. One other detail: this seems to be a recent development because on a previous test fire of the motor on the pan, I had forgotten it was in gear and it lurched forward when I threw the switch for the starter. So with that in mind, I'm assuming something is hinky with the shifter. Thanks in advance for any help.
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"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

67jason · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:06 am Post subject:

if you put the shifter in the normal reverse position does it go forward?

i suspect whoever fiddled last with your tranny put the ring & pinion in backward giving you 4 reverse and 1 forward gear.
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67 bug x3
67 ghia
64 bug

[email protected] · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:13 am Post subject:

It is possible on some transmissions to put the differential in backwards so the car goes backwards.

67jason · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:18 am Post subject:

DuneSluggy · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:19 am Post subject:

Oh wow, that is astoundingly bad news Rolling Eyes

I will reinstall the shifter and see if reverse goes forward. Thanks for the fast replies, I will update ASAP.
_________________
"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

DuneSluggy · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:22 am Post subject:

Well, I cleaned up and reinstalled the shifter which dramatically improved the slop in the shifting so that I can now feel the shift pattern. I put it in reverse and it doesn't feel quite right. The shifter doesn't go as far back as second and fourth do. When I let off the clutch, the car doesn't move, all other gears are causing the car to reverse proportionate to their ratios.
What are y'all's thoughts? Is it new trans time? Can someone give me a breakdown flipping the ring and pinion involves? At this point I'm open to any and all advice. Thanks again.
_________________
"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

Dougy Dee · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:31 am Post subject:

Was the trans out and re-installed? Could be that the hockey stick (selector) inside the nosecone is installed incorrectly. Trans needs to be removed or shifted a rearward to remove and re-install. A search will dig up lots of info on the procedure.

Confirming what side the ring gear is on can be done by draining the trans and looking in the drain plug hole under the diff. The gear should be on the clutch release arm side of the trans for a rear engine car. A mid engine car will be on the starter side.

DuneSluggy · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:56 am Post subject:

I'm not sure of the origins/history of the trans unfortunately. I bought a rolling chassis and it hasn't been removed since I've owned it.

As for the other steps you recommended (thanks btw), is the blue arrow in this pick the selector?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Also, can you elaborate what the ring gear would look like when viewed through the drain hole? Sorry for the rookie questions, something about transmissions makes my brain turn off.
_________________
"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

mukluk · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject:

Yes, the blue arrow is pointing at one of the shift selectors. The part that engages it is the transmission shift lever, also commonly refered to as the hockey stick. That aside, I can't think for the life of me how it would be possible to mess up the shifter install in such a way that you have four reverse gears... the only thing that makes sense in that senario would be the differential is swapped from normal for a Type 1. My hunch, based on the fact we're talking about a buggy, is the trans that is installed was originally from a bus with reduction gearboxes and the RGB axles and tubes have since been swapped out.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

61SNRF · Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:39 pm Post subject:

If you have four speeds in reverse that means the differential was installed with the ring gear on the starter side.

That trans may have been set up for an early -'67 Bus because they have reduction gear boxes on the ends of the axles that reverse the drive rotation, so that's the side builder would put it on if it were going into one.

The fact that it won't engage reverse, or the other (forward?) drive speed could be due the Hurst shifter and/or fine adjustments.
You could eliminate the shifter question altogether by going right to the hockey stick under the tunnel inspection cover and checking that the gears engage properly. Too hard to explain but with the engine off you simply rotate the stick with pliers and push/pull it to simulate exactly what the shift rod does. Takes some reverse thinking, practice, fiddling and finesse but once you get the feel and once you know you have positively found a forward gear and have it fully engaged, depress the clutch pedal to start the engine then see which way the car travels.

Very good quick tip offered by Dougy Dee too, pull the drain plug under the rear axle/diff and look inside. The ring gear should be on the left side for Beetle, right side for TII w/RGB's.

Changeover simply involves swapping the differential w/ring side to side, so the pinion is not disturbed.
However, some advanced skills are required because the R&P backlash will have to be re-checked/re-adjusted if needed, and if nothing else the diff bearing preload checked/adjusted too because that is effected by your side cover gasket selection.
_________________
-Bruce

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

DuneSluggy · Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:27 am Post subject:

Wow, that is super good info, thank you all for replies!

A few follow up questions to help decide my next steps:
If I'm understanding correctly (remember, transmissions make my brain turn off), the ring gear which should be somewhere near the blue arrow in this pic:

Is mounted on the wrong side. I am most likely going to have a mechanic handle the job for me but I want to know what will be involved so that I don't get worked over on the price. How is the ring gear attached to the axle(s)? I'm assuming they will need to pull both axles off to complete this.... Sounds pricey. Also, as far as the bus trans goes, is there a benefit to using one in off-road applications? Would it be more cost effective/simpler in scope to buy a new transaxle set altogether?

Thanks again for all of the help you guys, I have no idea what I would do without the Samba and charitable souls such as yourselves.
_________________
"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

DuneSluggy · Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:18 am Post subject:

One more quick detail, just did some research on what the RGBs are. My car does not have these. So it would appear that I have a bus trans built for them but do not actually have RGBs, if I'm understanding this correctly.
_________________
"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

mukluk · Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:17 pm Post subject:

The ring gear is attached to the differential, the axles are installed into the differential after the transaxle side plates are installed. Depending on which side of the pinion gear the ring gear engages, the differential will rotate forwards or backwards when in a forward gear... the determining factor as to which way to install the differential and ring gear is whether you are running standard Type 1 axles or bus RGBs (or if you're running a mid engine setup). The bus RGB setup is useful for an offroad car as it gains you a bit of ground clearance, allows you to fit larger diameter tires due to added fender clearance, and also gives you better gearing to handle the larger tires.

In order to swap the differential around to change the rotation direction, you'll need to reset the gear backlash and bearing preload... it's not horribly difficult, but it does require some specialized tools and benefits greatly from having previous experience in performing the job.

The following pics are stolen from the gallery:

Differential & ring gear assembly with axles. This particular one is for a split case trans; with the tunnel type trans the axles wouldn't be installed until after the transaxle was assembled.

In this pic you can see the pinion gear in the trans that the ring gear engages when installed (later IRS trans, but the premise is the same).

_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

DuneSluggy · Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:21 pm Post subject:

Thanks Mukluk, that helps a lot!

Since the car is just a pan with an engine and trans (no body at this point), could a mechanic do this job without pulling the engine? It seems like the bulk of the work is going to be in the axles but I obviously am a novice at this area of the car's operation.

Is there a way for me to verify that this bus/type 1 mixup is for sure my problem before I involve a mechanic, perhaps by identifying the transmission by the case number or otherwise? I'm so sorry for all of the stupid questions, I just like to fully understand the situation before I spend any money. Also my wife is getting pretty tight fisted with my buggy fund Rolling Eyes

Thanks again for the help/advice.
_________________
"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

mukluk · Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:49 pm Post subject:

Transaxle work would likely be a pain to attempt while installed, the mechanic would most likely want it removed.

As mentioned earlier by Dougy Dee, you can determine if the differential orientation is your problem by draining the trans oil and looking up through the drain hole to see which side the ring gear is on. The normal Type 1 setup will have the ring gear towards the left side of the car, the Type 2/midengine setup will have the ring gear on the right side.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

[email protected] · Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:56 pm Post subject:

DuneSluggy · Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:59 am Post subject:

Thanks again Mukluk and DougyDee and all others who replied.

Apologies PTJJB, I didn't mean to ignore or be a broken record about the verification options, I did catch the drain hole process and will definitely be using it. I was just wondering if there was a worst-case scenario where the solution wasn't a flipped ring gear and if I could positively identify the trans as a bus trans. I will do some research into case numbers and identification.

I will update once the work is done either by myself or a mechanic. Thanks again!
_________________
"Hard work always beats talent if talent doesn't work hard."
The Hellcat:
Coyote-clone buggy with 1835cc, stock carb....for now.

61SNRF · Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:57 pm Post subject:

Dude,
Besides the nose cone/hockey stick, there is no major differences between a Bus or Beetle trans of similar vintage other than a Bus is put together with the ring gear on the right (because it has RGB's that reverse the rotation), and a Beetle's is put on the left because it does not.

The real question is, what's the history on this trans?
Only a few scenarios come to mind...
Was it built as a Bus trans with ring gear on the right, bare with no axles/RGB's, for later use with RGB's?
Or, did the mechanic get mixed up and install it on the wrong side? Not unheard of in the VW World Laughing

For Pete's sake, please pull that drain plug! Rolling Eyes

_________________
-Bruce

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

WooleyNelson · Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:10 am Post subject:

one possibility no one has mentioned, would this car have had a Corvair engine previously installed? Corvair engines rotated opposite direction as VW. .....just a possiblilty.....

drscope · Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:46 am Post subject:

Another thing i was wondering scanning through this - is this by chance a mid engine buggy? If so, using a stock transmission would be giving you 4 reverse gears and one forward.

Or, has the transmission been flipped? Flipping is also a standard practice on some buggies to get more ground clearance.

If it's been flipped or is a mid engine and the ring gear wasn't flipped, then you have drive in the wrong direction.

Or of the transmission was simply assembled with the ring gear on the wrong side you get drive in the wrong direction.
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Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch!


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