Bloody non-Starter

[Nighttrain1974]

Ok folks, an oldie but a good one.

Having problems getting the old girl to turn over (anytime of the day). Turn the key, idiot lights dim, click at the back but nothing wants to turn. I have a 71 with a 1600cc in at the back, new leads (november), new alternator (january), new points, condenser, cables to starter from battery, new regulator and a new battery.

Have gone through everything wiring wise to check for corrosion, ground straps are fine and the like. Tried the screwdriver across the starter terminals technique and sometimes this works and sometimes it does'nt.

About the only thing i have'nt done to this engine is replace the starter and it's really starting to bug me now. It bump starts fine, you only have to roll at about 5mph to bump it and after that things are sweet.

I do'nt want to go to the expense (and major hassle) of replacing the starter motor if it is'nt that and was thinking about a hard start relay but all the publications i have got refer to american parts and i am not sure if i can get the right relay or not.

Any suggestions would be welcome as it can work fine for a week or more then just not want to play.

Thanks for looking
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72' beetle (stock)
72' beetle (cal-look)
71' bay (now sold)

Everything rests in peace until man forces it to do otherwise.

[Randy in Maine]

Before you replace the starter, try putting in a hot start relay. Everybody ends up doing it sooner or later it seems. Look for the starter relay procedure over here:

http://type2.com/bartnik/

[Nighttrain1974]

Ok folks, got hold of a solenoid to do the hard start relay thing with and no luck. So i reckon the starter is bollocks.

Anybody replaced one of these before and is it an easy thing to do ?
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72' beetle (stock)
72' beetle (cal-look)
71' bay (now sold)

Everything rests in peace until man forces it to do otherwise.

[Amskeptic]

10 minute job.
Disconnect battery negative
Take off upper right 17mm nut on case flange from inside,
pull as you loosen to keep bolt in cut-out and thus stationary
Remove plastic heater duct on right side
Remove 13mm nut on solenoid with all those wires
Pull off spade terminal on solenoid
Remove 15mm lower starter nut
Watch starter fall on your nose
Compare teeth and dimensions w/ new starter
Clean starter flange beautifully for best alignment
Stick a pinky of grease on end of new starter shaft
Stick starter in hole
Replace 15mm lower starter nut DO NOT TIGHTEN
Clean all wire terminals with emory, replace with 13mm nut
Stick big long 17mm bolt through upper starter hole
and lodge it in the cut-out, sometimes a stick to some frame point will hold it there as you screw around upstairs
Go up inside compartment, gently tickle 17mm nut back on case flange, secure 22 ft/lbs
Go back down and snug up 15mm nut to 14 ft/lbs
Reinstall heater duct
Put on negative post
Start yer engine, boy.
Colin

[70 140]

A minor detail,
I like to put a liberal amount of dielectric grease on the terminals.

[keifernet]

Replacing the starter is a snap, Nice outline of the procedure Colin.

the bitch is if the bushing in the trans is worn, it is, or can be depending on your skills ( and not knocking you, but if you have never even changed a starter then the bushing would prove difficult) a tediuous experience.

Unfortunantly IF the bushing is worn, it will end up killing the starter pre-maturely and may (or may not have) been the cause of the old starters demise. Usually rebuillt and New Bosch starters come with a bronze bushing attached saying 'NO WARRANTY' unless the bushing is installed.
If at all possible ( if the bushing is of unkown age or milage) replace it.
If you know it was done recently and or you did it youself in the last few years and the starter "just went" then you may not need to replace it.


For those who may not know or understand it..... the VW starter ( except for the SR 17X "autostick" starter) does not have both ends of the armature supported in the starter itself, hence the need for the bushing in the transaxle housing. If/when this bushing gets worn the armarture windings lays skewed inside the housing/field part of the starter motor.
This can cause "flat spot" and other intermittant or weak starting symptoms.

wow... too much coffee this morning!

[Randy in Maine]

Quick question:

What is the easy way to get the bushing out?

[keifernet]

Easy with the engine out.... not so easy with it in...

one way is to ( using the new bushing in your hand) find a tap the right size that would thread itself into the bushing... then under the bus, knock the tap in a wee bit with a small ball peen and then start the tap....after it threads into the bushing it may be possible to clamp vice grips on the tap and then bang on the grips with the same small ball peen and the tap will come out...

or.... if the tap is long enough you can keep threading and/ or get a long threaded bolt the same thread as the tap and run it into the freshly tapped threads of the bushing... it will then "hit" inside the bellhousing and extract the bushing automatically.

May sound funky... but I have had success using this method... there may be some other tricks, I will try and remember them

[Nighttrain1974]

I am pretty good electric side of the bus and on the mechanical side learning all the time. Where the starter is on these things is an absolute bitch to work on and to remove (i guess, John Muir says it is) and I also don't fancy pulling the whole engine out for what is only a two bolt and a bushing job at the end of the day.

Another question as i don't have the time and space to pull engine at moment:

How can i tell if bushing is worn or not ?
_________________
72' beetle (stock)
72' beetle (cal-look)
71' bay (now sold)

Everything rests in peace until man forces it to do otherwise.

[keifernet]

You do not need to pull the engine to change the starter.

Follow the directions layed out by Colin ( amskeptic) in his post above, it doesn't get much clearer than that in any manual!

if you have not yet bought your new/ rebuilt starter then get the Bosch SR-17x "autostick" starter and you need not worry about the bushing.

It is a "self supported" shaft style and does not use the bushing in the transaxle.

only thing is... sometimes the dealer requires one for the core charge... or some accept the other starter in trade... just depends.

Since your in the UK ? ask around and see who stocks them.

[thenexttownshend]

I dont mean to hi-jack your thread, but ive been havin trouble gettin the starter to turn over in my 1973 bus, im picking up a type IV engine on saturday to replace the 1300, befor i do the switcharoo should i replace the brushing with the engine out? then see if the starter cranks? If so , whats the best way to do that? i have gotten the stater to crank before, but i found the leak in the gas tank by pouring gas all over it and its been giving me the click noise ever since then. (yeah the gas tanks gettin replaced befor i put the new engne in dont worry, i already checked, its not the line that was leakin, its the tank) sorry if i stole your thread, as always any help you guys give me is greatly appriciated
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Steve

-1973 Bus Type II

[keifernet]

Cool, you found a good used engine local huh?

I would no doubt replace the bushingon principle alone... if you have the engine out.... it is a snap. you just drift it out with an 8mm or maybe 9mm deep socket and knock the new one in with a 10mm ( about the same size as the O.D. ( outer diameter) of the bushing.)

[thenexttownshend]

yeah the guys in mass hes gonna give it to me complete right down to the muffler for 300 bucks. he gave it a compression test and drove with it in the bus a few days befro he parted it out, he said the compression is good and it drives just fine.
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Steve

-1973 Bus Type II

[hurst_dave]

I just used keifernet's method and it worked great. I had a tap that was about an inch long so I just threaded it into the bushing and kept on going. When the tap contacted the engine block the bushing walked itself out along the tap; took about 5 minutes to remove the bushing this way. Comparing the old bushing to a new one shows about twice the play, which hopefully explains why I have gone through 2 rebuilt starters in a year...we'll see what happens with number 3.

FYI--on a 1978 2L w/ manual transmission the tap size I used was 7/16".
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1978 Deluxe Campmobile Westy, 2.0L w/ FI.
Don't believe everything you think.

[dweller]

[greenbus pilot]

Good advice here. I had that same problem- put on a relay, replaced the bushing, etc. Problem FINALLY disappeared after installing a NEW starter solenoid. Problem solved. Has not failed since.
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Sent from a white van down the street.