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micahmonster
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016
Posts: 22
Location: Denver
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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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Oh my, I seem to have caused a kerfluffle. I actually ordered some Purple Power. What is the thoughts on that? I did search for a good thing to use for this, and couldn't find anything that doesn't come in 5 gallon drums, so any input on that would be great.
I planned to dispose of anything properly, and they will be going back into service (assuming they all pass the click test) as soon as I can rebuild the lines to pop them on. Won't be long. a day or two, most - and Ill treat them with fuel too.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| micahmonster wrote: |
Oh my, I seem to have caused a kerfluffle. I actually ordered some Purple Power. What is the thoughts on that? I did search for a good thing to use for this, and couldn't find anything that doesn't come in 5 gallon drums, so any input on that would be great.
I planned to dispose of anything properly, and they will be going back into service (assuming they all pass the click test) as soon as I can rebuild the lines to pop them on. Won't be long. a day or two, most - and Ill treat them with fuel too.
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It contains either sodium hydroxide or sodium silicate or similar. Its hidden on both th3 old MSDS and newer SDS sheets....but both note and warn....CORROSIVE....DO JOT STORE IN ALUMINUM OR COPPER CONTAINERS.
It MUST, MUST MUST.....be rinsed with water.....and becauze it has a high solution strength and is corrosive.....I'm not talking about a cursory rinse. It must be heavily rinsed and neutralized from parts and then oiled.
All of this is in the data a tech sheets. It WILL eat aluminum and CAN defeat lubricants if not rinsed away. Its a great degreaser and wheel cleaner.
I would never use it in a parts washer configuration.
No in my opinion YOU did not cause a kerfluffle. You can use something like this for cleaning whatever you want......many times you may get away with it. The times you don't may be very expensive.
This herd sensitivity to reality based advice.....is one of the reasons I "usually" stay away from the type 3 forum. Just not worth the hassle. The bus forum and their severe lack of reality in some instances .....and a few assorted assholes....is why I stay away from there now.
I give warnings based on knowledge and experience. Like John from AC.net says.....its just advice.....do what you want with it.
Others were pissed because my advice was counter to theirs. All I can do is shrug.
Do the research and make your own choices. Ray |
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micahmonster
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016
Posts: 22
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| So, what do you recommend I use then? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| micahmonster wrote: |
| So, what do you recommend I use then? |
So....is this for a parts washer or for just cleaning injectors?
For injectors....Berrymans B-12 Chemtool. If you are an enterprising chemist type of guy....and you want to make up some sauce just for freeing up things like injectors....buy a quart of MEK, a quart of xylene and some naptha or toluene at Home Depot. Mix it about 60% MEK, 20% xylene and 20% naptha or toluene. use it with a squeeze bottle to fill items like injectors, fuel screens etc.... to cut through the crud. Store in glass or metal cans with seals.
For a parts washer....the tough part is cost versus nastiness.
Here is one set of rules that are 100% correct:
1. If its water based or listed as non-VOC....to be effective at cleaning 95% of those MUST be heated because they are surfactant/detergent mixes...and contrary to advertising ....are just as unsafe to use as solvents ...just not flammable. Do not breathe/aspirate them and do not get on your skin. Some of these will screw you up worse than paint thinner.
100% of them I have found must be rinsed with water.
2. If its citrus based....its rarely VOC free....but usually has a high enough flash point to pass. It is also usually slow....and rarely 100% effective on all types of greases and oils. Because they are usually mixed with surfactant....about 75% of them MUST be rinsed with water
This one works decent.
http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=05067
http://www.crcindustries.com/faxdocs/msds/5067.pdf
Read the warnings. Its smell is not ideal. Its one of the many available at O-reilleys, Autozone etc. Its basically a paint thinner with a little more oomph for greases and oils and doctored to have a higher flash point.
I use and like the Gunk SC super concentrate. Its a surfactant mix that does not have to be water rinsed. You add it to Kerosene. You can get it at O-reilleys and on-line. Its about $35-40 a gallon but you mix that gallon with about 12-15 gallons of Kerosene.
The OLD school Gunk product which was awesome....is water miscible...meaning when you are done cleaning, rinse the part in water and the solvent mix dissolves into a detergent foam and rinses away...and leaves a rust resistant oil film. They have quit selling it at the consumer level (meaning in Flaps).
You can buy it on line. Its in Solder seal/Gunk's industrial line. Its called Gunk SC-5.
Ray |
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micahmonster
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2016
Posts: 22
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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UPDATE:
Got her running.
So, to go over all I did from getting her back about 4 weeks ago:
New Gas Pump (the Ford version)
all new Mercedes 7.5mm FI gas line front to back.
Removed and sonic cleaned all four injectors, tested, all work.
New little injector gaskets
Cleaned up and did some wire repair of everything in the bay that looked suspect, including the strange rerouting of grounds. Also found a broken wire in an injector plug)
Took out, inspected, tested, and cleaned the fi trigger points.
Clamped vacuum advance hose just in case, will replace soon.
new plugs/wires
She's idling a little high, and she's missing or something at higher RPM - I think I need to set her timing, but before I do that I'm replacing rear brakes pads, parking cables, and the pass. side axle seals. Then I'll take her for a spin and see how the power is or is not.
She does start right up though, don't need to even touch that pedal. Do so love these FI systems! |
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stonecoldcars
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2013
Posts: 265
Location: Oregon
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jgerock
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2011
Posts: 50
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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This is a good thread. I can relate to my BMW fuel injection experiences. To me, the most important things are to clean out the tank, replace the fuel lines/filters and clean the grounding points. The BMW MFI system uses a total of (5) screens/filters. Fuel supply pressure is the same 28 PSIG as the Type 3.
Curious as to the negative comment on coating the fuel tank for FI use. There are many folks who have used the POR gas tank sealer system for home use and Gas Tank ReNu professional approach. I used the POR coating on my 72 Beetle and ReNu on my 69 BMW (yes - both used carbs instead of FI).
An ultrasonic cleaner works great at cleaning the fuse box if you get one large enough. Using a small brass brush or Scotch-Brite pad on the tabs works well. The BMW uses the SAME bullet type fuses as the VW. I also use the Ultrasonic unit it to clean the MFI injectors on the BMW engine (no electrics). I use diluted jewelry cleaning solution then rinse the parts thoroughly with warm water, dry with compressed air then spray/wipe with Liquid Wrench to keep the bare metal parts from rusting. |
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Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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If you use the coating system on the Type 3 fuel injection tank, it is likely to plug the return line "cup" at the bottom of the tank, rendering the FI system inoperable.
_________________
71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
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jgerock
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2011
Posts: 50
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| Donnie strickland wrote: |
| If you use the coating system on the Type 3 fuel injection tank, it is likely to plug the return line "cup" at the bottom of the tank, rendering the FI system inoperable. |
Thanks Donnie for the short and sweet answer. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| jgerock wrote: |
This is a good thread. I can relate to my BMW fuel injection experiences. To me, the most important things are to clean out the tank, replace the fuel lines/filters and clean the grounding points. The BMW MFI system uses a total of (5) screens/filters. Fuel supply pressure is the same 28 PSIG as the Type 3.
Curious as to the negative comment on coating the fuel tank for FI use. There are many folks who have used the POR gas tank sealer system for home use and Gas Tank ReNu professional approach. I used the POR coating on my 72 Beetle and ReNu on my 69 BMW (yes - both used carbs instead of FI).
An ultrasonic cleaner works great at cleaning the fuse box if you get one large enough. Using a small brass brush or Scotch-Brite pad on the tabs works well. The BMW uses the SAME bullet type fuses as the VW. I also use the Ultrasonic unit it to clean the MFI injectors on the BMW engine (no electrics). I use diluted jewelry cleaning solution then rinse the parts thoroughly with warm water, dry with compressed air then spray/wipe with Liquid Wrench to keep the bare metal parts from rusting. |
Donnie's answer is one of the major points/issues with coating the inside of tanks.
The second part of that which is even more of a problem when coating the inside of fuel tanks even if they do not have the specialty apparatus of the type 3 tank....is the very common adhesion failure rate and re-rust rate of even the best products out there.
This is in almost all cases...where the coating product itself did not fail "chemically".....caused by:
1. improper/incomplete cleaning. That is a two prong issue. The primary part is that all deep or crusty rust more than about .001"-.002"...MUST be removed. Otherwise its porosity and oxygen content just cause it to keep rusting.
The secondary part is Degreasing and varnish removal. Removing fuel varnish can be either a mechanical process (hard to do for sure inside of a tank)....or chemical....using a caustic chemical. REAL varnish responds best to a high PH, high solution strength chemical like caustic soda. Then you need to neutralize. Then it will flash rust.
In cases of weak thin varnish...you can usually (but not always) remove the varnish at the same time as removing crusty rust by using a high solution strength acid like muriatic acid. Again, neutralize and then flash rust.
Flash rust is actually a good thing.
2. Poor priming of the tank inner surface.
The better gas tank liners out there are generally of two variety...polyester based or epoxy based.
The polyesters are less sensitive to catalyzation spoilage...meaning where the catalyst (these are both two parts) is inhibited by something still in the tank.
But...the polyesters can have more issues with fuel mixtures and some alcohols undermining them. They must be a perfect film. Any porosity and they will be attacked and lift off. That being said..they are far easier to apply than epoxy and do not need as good of a surface primer
In the case epoxy based tank liners....the primer must be effective. This is why products like POR-15 use phosphoric acid or tannic acid based primers. They convert any left over thin rust or flash rust into iron phosphate which is an awesome rust inhibiting primer.
Also with epoxy is very easy to spoil the catalyst. Excessive fuel or solvent vapors left in the tank, excessive moisture, very low operating temperatures or poor mixing of the two ingredients...can all spoil the catalyst...causing it to be weak and prone to attack from the fuel.
I have used a couple of tank liners successfully...and have had a failure before where it came off in sheets. And...that failure was easily tracked to my lack of due-diligence in prepping and priming.
I have seen just as many successes as failures with tank liners.
It lead me to change my point of view with regard to their use. If you get the tank perfectly cleaned, no rust, degreased and convert and neutralize the surface...then keep it full when the car is sitting still...keeping oxygen to a minimum....why would you need a tank liner.
Lastly....the term "success"...with tank liners....can be a relative term. Some are happy with another five years of trouble free driving. Some with ten years. Either way when it craps out...they finally pop for a new tank. When it craps out from a failed liner it usually has now has rust that was growing between liner and tank and is beyond repair.
I have a different ethic because of what I drive and work on. There are no aftermarket tanks for VW 411 or 412, serviceable used tanks are rare and getting to be less as time goes by. I preserve what I have carefully.
There are a couple of pictures of my tank taken during the restoration of it in this thread from last year. I documented the whole process but have not had time to put together the how-to thread/document for it. Its coming
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645335&highlight=
Ray |
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johnsws
Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2021
Posts: 2
Location: Gloucestershire
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:55 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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Dear Tram
I have come across your post with reference to your knowledge of the VW aircolled fuel injection system and was wondering if you could offer some advice?
I have a 1978 Beetle 1.6 Karmann Cabrio that I used as my wedding car 10 years ago. The car lives in a dry garage in Germany at my wife's parents house and has been used infrequently over the subsequent years. It has always run extremely well and has been serviced well in terms of the ignition system. It recently failed to start. I have tried everything within my power to get it running properly but have failed.
I have previously had problems with the ignition switch so started there with a new switch. The fuel pump wasn't running so I hard wired it straight from the battery and found current draw but no movement (seized) so replaced that with a new pierburg pump with the correct pressure. Pump now runs. Whilst I was there I fitted a new FI (Square box style) fuel filter ensuring it was fitted in the right direction. As a matter of course I had already replaced the battery (which was weak) the points, condensor, spark plugs and coil. Whilst replacing the pump I completely drained the tank and put new 98 octane fuel in. I then checked all vacuum lines and fuel lines and found a repair had been done to the S shaped rubber boot between the air flow sensor and the throttle body -I have made sure the repair was air tight and good. I had already checked the double relay and have found that the pump had been wired so that it no longer goes through the cut off switch in the air flow meter. I'm not sure why as I carefully removed the cover from the airflow meter and checked the function of the switch and it seems to operate exactly as it should. What became apparent was that the pump switch in the AFM only feeds the pump when there is initial movement from the sensor vane presumably provided from suction from cranking. I understand that this would cut power to the pump if the engine stopped as a safety measure. I manually opened the vane slightly and managed to get the car started. I then disconnected the electrical plug from the AFM and the car starts and runs albeit roughly. It seems that there is not enough suction to move he vane under cranking although I cannot find an air leak between the afm and the motor. I have even tried spraying starter fluid around the inlet tract to see if it gets sucked in but nothing happens. Whilst I had the AFM apart I checked the change in resistance provided by the brass wiper across its movement and everything seemed ok. I am a bit stuck!! Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am very keen to retain the injection syastem as the car ran beautifully before.
With thanks in anticipation
John W air cooled VW/Porsche fan |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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Start simple.
Go through every vacuum hose in the system and make sure none are disconnected or broken.
Check and adjust the valves.
Test your resistance on temp senders 1 and 2 and make sure they have good connections and are in range.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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johnsws
Samba Member
Joined: December 25, 2021
Posts: 2
Location: Gloucestershire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:29 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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Thank you Tram for your reply. I will do all those things next time I'm in Germany which is likely to be in the Summer and I'll let you know how that goes. Wishing you a blessed Christmas break and a healthy and happy '22.
With kind regards John |
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tjmartin317
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 245
Location: West Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:12 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| EverettB wrote: |
Needing to match the ECU with the MPS (if having to replace 1 or the other).
Using the mechanical AAR to replace a faulty electric one. |
I know this is a fairly old, but could someone elaborate the acronyms. I'm mechanically incompetent and bad with acronyms.
On top of this, does anyone have any experience with these NAPA fuel pumps?
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/DFPFE0023
I know that throwing just anything in/fiddling with the regulator the wrong way can set these things ablaze, and that's the last thing I'd want to do haha! |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13270
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:40 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| tjmartin317 wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
Needing to match the ECU with the MPS (if having to replace 1 or the other).
Using the mechanical AAR to replace a faulty electric one. |
I know this is a fairly old, but could someone elaborate the acronyms. I'm mechanically incompetent and bad with acronyms.
On top of this, does anyone have any experience with these NAPA fuel pumps?
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/DFPFE0023
I know that throwing just anything in/fiddling with the regulator the wrong way can set these things ablaze, and that's the last thing I'd want to do haha! |
waste of money. use this. you can get it at autozone too https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=59606 |
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tjmartin317
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 245
Location: West Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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Alrighty! That's the pump that was suggested in another forum, but the Rockauto one costs way less than the others! And from what I understand, it links right up to the stock regulator. Thanks man! |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| tjmartin317 wrote: |
Alrighty! That's the pump that was suggested in another forum, but the Rockauto one costs way less than the others! And from what I understand, it links right up to the stock regulator. Thanks man! |
It might be cheaper, but I prefer to buy local in case it leaks (yes, I've had that happen before). It was a Precision brand pump from O'Reilly's, and it leaked from one of the ends. I took it back and went to another store and got another one to get the car running (I wasn't home at the time).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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tjmartin317
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 245
Location: West Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| It might be cheaper, but I prefer to buy local in case it leaks (yes, I've had that happen before). It was a Precision brand pump from O'Reilly's, and it leaked from one of the ends. I took it back and went to another store and got another one to get the car running (I wasn't home at the time). |
Well, there's this one at Autozone:
https://www.autozone.com/external-engine/fuel-pump/p/delphi-fuel-pump-cfd0029/340433_0_0
I put in one of the part numbers Rockauto gave me and it comes up with it. Different brand, but similar design (and about $30 more expensive). I could get my hands on that pretty quick, though considering it's not the exact "airtex 2500" that I could have from Rockauto, idk if it's the right way to go. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:24 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| tjmartin317 wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| It might be cheaper, but I prefer to buy local in case it leaks (yes, I've had that happen before). It was a Precision brand pump from O'Reilly's, and it leaked from one of the ends. I took it back and went to another store and got another one to get the car running (I wasn't home at the time). |
Well, there's this one at Autozone:
https://www.autozone.com/external-engine/fuel-pump/p/delphi-fuel-pump-cfd0029/340433_0_0
I put in one of the part numbers Rockauto gave me and it comes up with it. Different brand, but similar design (and about $30 more expensive). I could get my hands on that pretty quick, though considering it's not the exact "airtex 2500" that I could have from Rockauto, idk if it's the right way to go. |
Ray probably has a huge list of pumps that could be used in place of either the OE Bosch or the Airtex replacement pump. I've used the Precision pump from O'Reilly's on a couple of type3s without any issues. They're a little cheaper than the Airtex pump too. The idea is that you're looking for a 1986 thru 1990 Ford Ranger frame rail mounted pump, versus a pump that sits inside the fuel tank. We've found that that pump puts out the required fuel pressure both when charging the fuel lines (and the regulator knocks it down to start), and keeps it there when under load (being driven). I'm only mentioning this, so that you're NOT locking yourself into thinking you need that one particular pump. Like I said Ray probably has a list of pumps that could be used in place of the Airtex pump, but it's probably in the type 4 forum as they use the same pump as the type 3 does for D-jet FI, even though they use a slightly larger engine.
It was Russ Wolfe who found out the Ford Ranger frame rail pump worked out for our cars, as he was looking for a low cost replacement for the Bosch pump (when his died on his way home from work), that normally costs 300+. A friend loaned him a used one, and he then went out and bought one from the Zone and returned the used pump to his friend.
I hope this helps.
P.S. Here's a link of Ray's thoughts on pumps; https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=640244&highlight=replacement+fuel+pump
Also you might want to look thru this thread; https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...+fuel+pump
I know Ray listed a bunch of pumps, but I can't find it. I know it's on here, as I've seen it.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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tjmartin317
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 245
Location: West Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:43 am Post subject: Re: How to get your FI Type 3 running after it's been sitting |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
I'm only mentioning this, so that you're NOT locking yourself into thinking you need that one particular pump. |
I bet that's the case, though it's good to know which pump is the popular option. Three cheers to Russ for figuring that one out for all of us!
I'll keep digging around for the list you're talking about, but again, having a go-to option is more my speed. |
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