094 5 speed into an 82 Westy

Gizmoman · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:24 am Post subject: 094 5 speed into an 82 Westy

I am working with Sean at Weddle Industries to stuff a rebuilt 094 5 speed into an 82 Vanagon. I have a diesel bellhousing bolted to the current DK 091 4 speed.
According to Sean, my bellhousing is a direct bolt-on to the 093 and my axles will be where they are currently. However, the overall length is much longer.

Any ideas on what mods are required to get it to fit? I'm assuming I may have to relocate the front mount brace. I also know the shift linkage will require heavy mods as well but my biggest concern is the front mount.

Any feedback is much appreciated.
Here's a spreadsheet showing my intended selection

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).

kirkvw72 · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:05 am Post subject:

Here is my current project's thread with pictures.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621930

You will see that I had to modify the mount to make it fit.

I imported the shifter, box, and linkage by going to ebay.de, using Google Translate, and asking if they would ship to the U.S.
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2015 VW GTi Autobahn
2000 Mercedes Benz E430
1992 Miata, automatic converted to a 5-speed
1988 Vanagon Wolfsburg
1987 Porsche 944 (951) Turbo
1987 Vanagon GL, Rocky Jennings Heads, RMW Exhaust, ASL 5-speed, AMG Wheels
1981 Porsche 924 (931) Turbo
1972 Beetle (standard)

MR GAS · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:16 am Post subject:

the weddle kit comes w the short front mount. it positions the trans up against the front bulkhead.so you have to get the later 83+ diesel engine bars that move the motor back. then install a late 83+ shifter . euro diesels came w 5 speeds bolt in. specific 5 speed shifter not needed.(ask Sean) Brown Vanagon

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Transaxles Rebuilt, Repaired and Re Geared 25 years. www.MRGASRebuilds.com

?Waldo? · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:17 am Post subject:

I think it's an 094, not 093.

As mentioned, the main issue with mounting the longer trans is that you currently have the '82 mounting system. The '83 diesel mounting system moves the engine/trans 1.5" to the rear of the van in order to make room for the trans. I think that without altering the engine mounting system, the trans will interfere with the front frame rail but I haven't rolled around under my vans with a tape measure this morning to find out. All of the vanagons after the air cooled mount the engine in the rearward position in order to accommodate either the 4 or 5 speed trans.

You could get the '83 mounting hardware but that may be its own can of worms with the necessity for longer accel cable, cold start cable, reworked intercooler/intake (again...), reworked exhaust, etc... Certainly all doable, but good to go into it with your eyes open.

MarkWard · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:29 am Post subject:

A good welder fabricator could modify your earlier carrier bars by either grinding off and rewelding the factory engine mounts further back or the carrier bars or the bars could be sectioned, sleeved, and rewelded. Relocating the engine further back might have an impact on coolant hoses, wiring, accel cable etc.
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Randy in Maine · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:22 pm Post subject:

Will that pass emissions in CA?

?Waldo? · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:44 pm Post subject:

Gizmoman · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:05 pm Post subject:

Great info everyone. And yes, I meant 094 - thanks libby.

I can fab pretty much anything needed I believe. A quick look under the van reveals a lot of work but it's doable if needed. One thing I'm not going to do is move the engine for the reasons libby mentioned and then some.

If anyone has dimensions to where the "front" of the 5 speed would land, that would help considerably. I'll shoot a note to Sean and ask him as well.

Sean from Weddle says "the engine can stay put" but he also said he doesn't know that much about vans.
Here's his latest reply to my request.m I left out his quote as I don't think it's right to post it. Suffice it to say it's about what I expected - plenty.

"Ok, so we have been working on the pricing for this trans today and finally came up with a number. $xxxxx will get you what would best be described as a heavy duty street trans. We would do an aluminum maincase and housings with a 2-spider differential, and all of our "upgraded" parts such as mainshaft bearing retainer plate, heavy duty 4th/5th slider hub, etc. You can pay the difference for the 4-spider diff if desired, but it is not necessary in most street applications.

We do make the shift linkage adapter that will bolt to the trans and point the linkage forward, then you could use a set of u-joints in the shift rod to make things easier. Again, this will have to be something that you will have tackle on your own as we do not know exactly what might get in the way under the Van. Since we don't actually do any work on Vanagons, we just aren't familiar enough with what fits and what doesn't. Sometimes I wish i had more info, but there are many builders our there that have plenty of info and can help much more than I can. You can always shoot your questions my way, if I don't have an answer, I can point to someone who probably will.

The gear ratio's you are looking at are good, you could maybe go to a higher 5th gear to bring down the RPMs at highway speed if desired, but the splits look good. According to my calculator, you will be doing 3000 RPM at 70 MPH.

As far as a timeline goes, I would expect 3-4 weeks from the time of your deposit (50% down) for delivery.

Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.

Best Regards,
Sean"

Thanks kirkvw72 for the link to your build, I've been watching but don't seem to have the sources you have and I need a tranny soon or this bus is dead.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).

?Waldo? · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:29 pm Post subject:

If you edit the subject line in your initial post it will update the thread title.

You're gonna make me roll around under my vans with a tape measure...

I have a WBX 091/1 (what Weddle calls an 094 4-speed) mounted with the 82 carrier bars/engine position and an 094 5-speed so can probably tell you definitively if you will need to remove the frame rail to make the trans fit...

?Waldo? · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject:

Sean may think that the position of the 091 4-speed and the 091/1 (what they call the 094 4-speed) is the same. It isn't.

I just measured inexactly... I can measure more precisely if need be when I have some free time.

The front of the 5-speed case would be very close, possibly touching the frame rail mounted with the '82 carrier bars. The studs that hold on the mount bracket would definitely be into the frame rail. You would probably need to modify the frame rail and make a custom trans nose mount.

Gizmoman · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject:

OK, modified post subject line to the correct numbers. Good thing I can't hear everyone laughing over the web - it would play hell with my self esteem Wink

I asked Sean for some dimensions in my reply to him. Hopefully he can come through with something. Modifying the beam and build a bracket will be a fun project.

As for plunking down the big bucks, it's a tough decision. I've been mulling this whole thing over for several years - much of which was spent rebuilding the AAZ and all the customizing that went with it.

It runs great and seems rock solid. The transmission is just not up to it and I see no reason to totally destroy the core, although Weddle isn't taking them as cores anymore.

What Sean describes sounds like a "lifetime" transmission that will finally allow the engine to stretch out a bit. I figure, this van is a fantastic vehicle and is worthy of the expense. A phrase that holds true, the more I say it.

Thanks again libby.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).

ALIKA T3 · Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:01 pm Post subject:

The shifter aluminum cup thingy is also longer on diesels 2WD Wink

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Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget

Gizmoman · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:37 am Post subject:

Gnarlodious · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:48 am Post subject:

If you are making a custom hangar I would suggest putting the nosecone an inch lower than the stock 5-speed. This will give you space to put some nice acoustic padding in there. The stock arrangement is much too close to the wall and ends up ripping any padding.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

MarkWard · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:05 am Post subject:

hdenter · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:09 am Post subject:

While you all are poking around under there... can any one tell me if the cross member that the forward trans mount bolts to is in the same place on the diesel '82 as it is on a later wbxer? I have an 82 chasis that I plan to build up using the complete driveline from a rusty '85 that currently has my 094 in it. I would like to assume that with a complete doner it should be fairly strait forward. I know.... assume.....

Thanks,

Hans
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'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

?Waldo? · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:12 am Post subject:

The frame location is the same.

Christopher Schimke · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:18 am Post subject:

Gizmoman · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:24 pm Post subject:

I do appreciate all the feedback on the shifter. The cast aluminum thingy does not look familiar though and I rebuilt the entire shifter a while back.

Trying to stay focused on mods to the crossmember(if needed) - here's the latest response from Sean at Weddle Industries after I asked for possible drawings of the unit. . .

"Unfortunately, We do not have any drawings for the VW transaxles. Best I can do is take a measuring tape and give some eyeball dims.

Sealing surface of B.H./maincase to end of nosecone: 19-5/8"

Approximate centerline of CV to end of nosecone: 16-3/8"

The dimension from center of CV to sealing surface of B.H./maincase is exactly the same as the 091 that you have in the van now. So, if you are keeping the CV's in exactly the same spot and using the same bell housing between the 2 transaxles, the motor should stay in exactly the same spot.

The big question and dimension that you will need to figure out is how much room you have from the CV to the end of the nosecone. You may run into a cross member or torsion housing. This may be where you might have to move the motor back to allow for the overall length of the trans.

The other thing to check closely will be the shift linkage adapter and having the room for this to fit. I've attached a few pictures of it mounted to a trans to get an idea of where is sits.
https://weddleindustries.com/products/new-products/new-shift-linkage-adapter-kit-094-and-weddle-hv

I wish I had more info to give you on this, but we have not been under enough of these vans to know exactly what is there. I can always take a tape to the trans to get you a somewhat specific dimension, but I would say the dims I gave above should be a good starting point to see if this will even work for you.

Best Regards,
Sean"

He sent some photos as well and I may post them if requested. I'd call that great customer service.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).

Gizmoman · Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject:

Here are the photos Sean sent showing the shifter mechanism they offer ( I have no affiliation with Weddle Industries). He thought they would help me see if I have room for it - maybe it will help others as well.

I crawled under the van with a tape and based on Sean's dimension from the bellhousing seat to the end of the nose cone of 19-5/8" - I have a tad over 1/8" to the face of the existing bracket sheet metal - sweeeet.
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).


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