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New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!)
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

very nice
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
very nice


Dancing
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Here's the reality check video, for when you go to start your new rebuild but somehow you still managed to fuck up the order of the plug wires and realized it when it started popping through the carb:

(Even as I was stringing the plug wires I was saying "I don't wanna be that guy" that gets the order fucked up and yet I still managed to do it. Putting it here for realness points - it happens, check the basic shit first because people do fuck up.) Though I have to say with DPR counterweighted crank it does run very smoothly even on two cylinders. Laughing

(D/A/N came by to document the moment)


Link


Then here's how it starts when the plug wires are right:


Link


And here we are during the 20 minute 2000 rpm run-in:


Link


The VW 691 tool is very handy for the initial run-in. Very Happy

Seems to run great, very smooth, no crazy oil leaks. Did catch a bit of seepage from one (just one!) pushrod tube seal which is very annoying.

It didn't throw a rod in that 20 minutes so I guess all is well. Done for the day but of course some breaking in and carb tuning is in order in the near future.


Congrats, that's a job for sure. Now it runs as good as it looks. Cool Very Nice. Applause
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

Thanks guys, it feels pretty good. Can't wait to drive it for real and see how it feels.

Prior to starting the engine the first time, I was cranking it over with the plugs removed to build up oil pressure. The light went out in good time and, as Wilson recommended, I cranked it for a few seconds more to ensure oil got everywhere in the engine. It was interesting to note that at some point, a few seconds after the light went out, the engine began to crank noticeably faster which was the point when the oil finally got to the bearing surfaces. Neat that you could hear it.

The reason half the fuel pump cover is off in the video is that the pump was leaking when I was doing my pre-start cranking. I had taken the top off to clean the screen when I had it off the car and apparently I did not tighten the top sufficiently causing some leakage once the pump was pumping.

After tightening the top I left the cover off just to make sure that was the issue and there was no further hidden leakage (there wasn't).

The eagle eyed among you will notice that in the last video, the right choke is still closed while the left one is open. I had replaced the right side choke element because it was a bit lazy compared to the left. Unfortunately the one I replaced it with was NOS dead out of the box - it never heated up. After taking the video I loosened the choke mounting screws and rotated it open so the mix wouldn't be crazy rich just on the right side.

Replaced it after the run-in with another NOS choke element and watched it through a heating cycle, now seems to match the left choke.

And that is a nerve-wracking 20 minutes. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

Yeah, that 20 minute break in time is always "nervous wreck" time, as you're listening for ANYTHING out of the ordinary. Not too mention looking for any oil leaks.
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

Hey guys, so a little weirdness that I'm trying to run down. I had noticed since installing the engine that the starter sounded different than before. A little "grindy" perhaps and louder when cranking than before. It cranks fine and releases fine, just doesn't sound quite right. You can hear it a bit in the first video above, especially when the engine starts to kick a little bit against the starter.

So the only difference that would impact the starter that I can think of is I am using a different flywheel than I was before. Since I switched to a cross-drilled crank, I got a corresponding 6 volt o-ring flywheel from DPR to replace the original non-o-ring, metal gasket flywheel.

I did verify that the flywheel I got from DPR was 6v by counting the teeth. The teeth look to be in great shape, perhaps actually less worn than the original flywheel.

Today I pulled the starter out to see what's up and I found a few thin metal slivers in the starter opening in the bell housing. You can see some of them in this photo:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I checked with a magnet and they are ferrous, which makes me think they are from the flywheel teeth or the starter gear.

The starter gear looks great. As do the flywheel teeth, as you can see in this photo:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is a little bit of scoring on the nose of the starter shaft and I have never replaced the bushing so I don't know how worn out it is. My thinking is maybe the bushing has enough slop in it to where the starter gear is meshing with these less worn teeth in a weird way compared to the old flywheel, thus making some noise and some shavings.

My initial thought is to replace the bushing and see what happens from there.

Anybody seen this before?
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Last edited by sjbartnik on Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

For Beetles I go with an automatic starter. They do not need the bushing and they fit right in as a direct replacement to the ones needing a bushing.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

I would do that except my car is still 6v and there is no 6v automatic starter. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
I would do that except my car is still 6v and there is no 6v automatic starter. Very Happy


They did exist at one time: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2152073
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

The other thing I had considered was that maybe there was some parts mismatch using the o-ring flywheel but I checked the parts book and there was only ever one version of the 6v starter so it should work fine with the 6v o-ring flywheel (which was only used on the Type 3 for a few months in '66).
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Hey guys, so a little weirdness that I'm trying to run down. I had noticed since installing the engine that the starter sounded different than before. A little "grindy" perhaps and louder when cranking than before. It cranks fine and releases fine, just doesn't sound quite right. You can hear it a bit in the first video above, especially when the engine starts to kick a little bit against the starter.

So the only difference that would impact the starter that I can think of is I am using a different flywheel than I was before. Since I switched to a cross-drilled crank, I got a corresponding 6 volt o-ring flywheel from DPR to replace the original non-o-ring, metal gasket flywheel.

I did verify that the flywheel I got from DPR was 6v by counting the teeth. The teeth look to be in great shape, perhaps actually less worn than the original flywheel.

Today I pulled the starter out to see what's up and I found a few thin metal slivers in the starter opening in the bell housing. You can see some of them in this photo:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I checked and they are magnetic, which makes me think they are from the flywheel teeth or the starter gear.

The starter gear looks great. As do the flywheel teeth, as you can see in this photo:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is a little bit of scoring on the nose of the starter shaft and I have never replaced the bushing so I don't know how worn out it is. My thinking is maybe the bushing has enough slop in it to where the starter gear is meshing with these less worn teeth in a weird way compared to the old flywheel, thus making some noise and some shavings.

My initial thought is to replace the bushing and see what happens from there.

Anybody seen this before?


I'd give it a try. Your diagnosis sounds spot on to me, and looking at the bushing says wear. It's possible that things are still tight, and it should loosen up with more use (bed in together). Just make sure you get a bronze bushing, versus a brass bushing, as the brass will wear out quickly.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Tram wrote:
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

Today I did my first oil change on the rebuild as well as valve adjustment. This is after the 20 minute run-in at 2000 rpm and 25 miles of break-in driving.

Valves on the 1/2 side were all a tad on the looser side of .006". Valves on the 3/4 side were all a bit tighter than .006". Re-adjusted as necessary for .006" all around and will keep an eye on it when I do the 300 mile oil change.

I also at that point realized I had installed the valve cover bails upside down. Laughing
Luckily they are easy enough to flip in situ.

The oil came out looking like this:


Link


Lots of nice glittery bits and quite grey from the assembly lube. No chunks Very Happy

I would assume it should look like this on break-in but I post it here for comments.

I pulled the screen as well and cleaned it thoroughly.
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

I'm finally starting to feel like I can trust that the engine won't grenade. Very Happy

It's running great. Soooo quiet. Amazing how quiet it runs with no exhaust leaks but especially with no crazy loose camshaft making it sound like a diesel.

Today I replaced the starter bushing. There is JUST ENOUGH room for the Harbor Freight slide hammer bushing puller (I mean *just enough*) and that made short work of getting the old bushing out. Check out this old bushing, it's really weird.

First, it cracked and split as I was taking the puller out from the bushing:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Second, what is this material? Certainly doesn't look like bronze.

And check this out. The end visible from the starter side looked pretty normal but the end facing toward the rear of the car had this rough weird finish.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The old bushing definitely seemed a bit loose on the starter nose but it's hard to say for sure since it split before I could check it.

The new bushing is a nice snug fit.

My 1/2" to 3/8" drive adapter with a socket extension was the perfect driver to install the new bushing and ensure it went in flush and no further.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I can't say that it sounds a whole lot different, maybe just a little quieter. It sure does crank nice and fast. I think the rest is just going to come down to the starter teeth and the flywheel teeth wearing in together. I did notice that there weren't any metal slivers this time when I took the starter out.

The dust on top of the transaxle? Just some remnants of the Utah desert. Very Happy
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
I'm finally starting to feel like I can trust that the engine won't grenade. Very Happy

It's running great. Soooo quiet. Amazing how quiet it runs with no exhaust leaks but especially with no crazy loose camshaft making it sound like a diesel.

Today I replaced the starter bushing. There is JUST ENOUGH room for the Harbor Freight slide hammer bushing puller (I mean *just enough*) and that made short work of getting the old bushing out. Check out this old bushing, it's really weird.

First, it cracked and split as I was taking the puller out from the bushing:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Second, what is this material? Certainly doesn't look like bronze.

And check this out. The end visible from the starter side looked pretty normal but the end facing toward the rear of the car had this rough weird finish.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The old bushing definitely seemed a bit loose on the starter nose but it's hard to say for sure since it split before I could check it.

The new bushing is a nice snug fit.

My 1/2" to 3/8" drive adapter with a socket extension was the perfect driver to install the new bushing and ensure it went in flush and no further.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I can't say that it sounds a whole lot different, maybe just a little quieter. It sure does crank nice and fast. I think the rest is just going to come down to the starter teeth and the flywheel teeth wearing in together. I did notice that there weren't any metal slivers this time when I took the starter out.

The dust on top of the transaxle? Just some remnants of the Utah desert. Very Happy


Well I'm happy to hear that it's running nice and quiet and smooth. I don't know what that bushing is made up from (the old one), but if the engine spins over quicker, then I'd say you probably fixed it with the bushing change. Especially if you don't have any more metal slivers. Wink By the way, that old bushing looked like it had some sand or grit in it, making slight grooves in the bearing surface. I saw that before you changed it too.
You'll just have to wait and see if the starter and flywheel bed in together. Maybe then it'll turn over quieter. Very Happy
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

The old bushing looks like what has been described to me as "pig" metal. It's a really poor quality metal, very porous, and has an inclination to swell over time. Bushes of this type were used in Edison phonographs on the main deck spindle. When they swell they seize onto the shaft and render the machine unusable. I have replaced quite a few over the years with brass bushes, which prevents the issue ever arising again.
Cheers,
Tom.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
So while I had the transmission out I took a wire wheel to the transmission case where the starter mounts just to clean it up a bit...

holy shit does it crank fast now! Laughing

I was starting to wonder if my starter was on the way out but nope...just a poor ground.


Thank you for posting this! I was having same issue with my 6 volt starter. I removed starter and wire brushed starter mount and mounting pad, then I sprayed degreaser on ground strap cable from tranny to body. It spins like a 12v and instantly starts now. I took my car to 3 mechanics and they told me that’s how 6v works. Thanks again and I loved going through your thread!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

Hey all, been a long time since I updated this thread (almost 2 years!!) but the Square is still going strong.

Lately this is happening

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Been due for a while; it was starting to make a howling noise mostly on decal in 3rd gear. The hotter the oil, or the steeper the hill, or the heavier the load, the louder the howl.

Took it down to Matt Steedle in NJ and he tore it down with me there which was very cool. Main issue he saw was that the nut that preloads the pinion bearing had backed itself off a bit so the pinion bearing lost proper preload. Some weird wobbly wear pattern on the pinion bearing race and it stunk like burnt gear oil when he got the bearing out. That probably accounted for the noise.

Here's some teardown porn:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Found a bit of galling on the 4th gear teeth and the 1st gear synchro was a touch bent but everything else looked pretty much new inside. Still had the paint marks on everything.

Matt told me it was good I brought it in when I did, especially since that 4.12 Klinker??? R&P is apparently impossible to find these days.

Matt replaced the 4th gear set, new NOS synchros, new and/or NOS German bearings all around and NOS reverse cradle and actuator.

Matt doesn't want to deal with the swing axles anymore (can't say I blame him) so the rest of the axle setup is up to me, though I did bring him my parts so he could weigh in.

Looks like side gears and axles are still good; fulcrum plates will be replaced, and the side gear to thrust washer clearance was excessive so I've got some new thrust washers on order from Weddle. Hope to get it at least back in the car this coming weekend if all goes well.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

I have found that a side of asparagus and some nice Julián potato's go very well when serving transmission for dinner. And nice dry white wine to wash it down. Wink Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

In apartment living, the kitchen counter is the workbench Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: New (to me) 1965 1500 Variant S(!) Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
In apartment living, the kitchen counter is the workbench Laughing


I know what you mean. In my case it was to get into the AC. Laughing 🥶

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