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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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 Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:20 pm Post subject: New 2332 race engine 200 HP |
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After 35 years of playing with VW's I realize I'm a tired old man stuck in his old fashioned ways. I'm planning a 2332cc and would really like to sit down and listen to others ideas and consider their opinions on parts selection. My goal is to run 11.80's 1/4 mile in my 1400 Lb. w/driver drag race Dunebuggy. I bracket race and also want to compete in the 12.00 heads up index. I have run 12.30's with my old 2165cc in the Dunebuggy so I understand what I need to reach my goal. I know for sure I'm building a 2332 with 84mm crank, 5.5 rods, and N/A with 48 IDA's. No budget limits but I don't need to waste Benjamin's on unnecessary stuff. I want an engine that will last several hundred passes before a rebuild.
1..What pistons/cylinders? - Forged Mahle... Forged AA slipper skirts... Weisco
2..When does wedgmating become necessary?
3..What cam for a maximum 7200 RPM shift point?
4..Which 44x37.5 heads?... CB Street Eliminators or CB 044 "Super Pro"
5..Exhaust size? 1 5/8"...1 3/4"...1 7/8"
6..What clutch and pressure plate?...Stage 1...stage 2...Copperhead disc...Berg 3 puk disc
7..Thoughts on possibly e-85 fuel?
8..Wild guesses on 48 IDA venturies and jetting?
9..Are there any "Pro Stock" sized velocity stacks fit inside CB or K&N 48 IDA air cleaners?
Any other considerations or suggestions to throw out there?
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: New 2332 race engine 200 HP |
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My $.02
1..What pistons/cylinders? - Forged Mahle... Forged AA slipper skirts... Weisco
All of those are fine.
2..When does wedgmating become necessary?
I don't think you need to for this engine (due to the car weight), but it can't hurt. Wheel hop is brutal.
3..What cam for a maximum 7200 RPM shift point?
I'd use an 86C. FK45 is also a good choice. 10-11:1
4..Which 44x37.5 heads?... CB Street Eliminators or CB 044 "Super Pro"
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/ACN-Wheelie-King-Cylinder-Heads-L7s-Pair-p/l7-heads-pair.htm
or
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/044-Super-Pro-Cylinde...-heads.htm
5..Exhaust size? 1 5/8"...1 3/4"...1 7/8"
1 3/4" 4-1
6..What clutch and pressure plate?...Stage 1...stage 2...Copperhead
disc...Berg 3 puk disc
Stage I and Copperhead
7..Thoughts on possibly e-85 fuel?
Will work fine, or race fuel.
8..Wild guesses on 48 IDA venturies and jetting?
42-44mm venturis, F2
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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As far as wedgemating is concerned, factors such as output, vehicle weight, what RPM you'll be dropping the hammer, tire selection, and suspension will help determine whether or not to do it.
I remember reading once that Muffler Mike's SCAT crank lasted about ten years with just dowel pins in his all steel sedan at 180 HP. Once his combo exceeded 200 HP and he did suspension stiffining, the dowel pins gave up.
A fiberglass buggy is going to be lighter than a steel T1 sedan, but if your goal is longevity, maybe a flanged crank is in the cards for you. I see them pop up all the time here in the classifieds.
As for the rest pf the combo, if a client came to me wanting the same thing with a buggy, I'd shoot for peaky parts over parts that would assist in better lower end power. Example: the Super Pros probably have better lower end qualities, but in your light vehicle, bottom end is not as important.
I'd do: L7 heads, FK 46 or similar cam, i'd be tempted to try forged AAs, but for someone else's engine I'd go with Weisco. 1 7/8" header, and I'd start with 42 vents and move up or down till I got the best results. I'd use a Stage 1 and a good quality disk. Your trans will thank you.
_________________
"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
Last edited by bugguy1967 on Sat May 16, 2015 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dan Ruddock
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Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Revmaster sells cranks without the 8mm installed. Have berg match dowel it to the flywheel with 11/32 dowels. Tony klinks 10.60 car has 3/8 dowels with no wedge mate.
Dan |
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bugguy076
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Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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If you have to buy everything, take a look at C B Performance's engine kits. It may be a better deal. Plus you can get advise from a very good engine builder.
_________________
Grubby Fingers Racing
1976 Drag Bug
1967 Street Bug |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, not interested in any "Kits" just to save a few bucks. So far my list includes CB, SCAT, ACN, Gene Berg, Cip1, JayCee, and the Bugpack stuff I cleaned up from the local VW store.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7213
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: New 2332 race engine 200 HP |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
After 35 years of playing with VW's I realize I'm a tired old man stuck in his old fashioned ways. I'm planning a 2332cc and would really like to sit down and listen to others ideas and consider their opinions on parts selection. My goal is to run 11.80's 1/4 mile in my 1400 Lb. w/driver drag race Dunebuggy. I bracket race and also want to compete in the 12.00 heads up index. I have run 12.30's with my old 2165cc in the Dunebuggy so I understand what I need to reach my goal. I know for sure I'm building a 2332 with 84mm crank, 5.5 rods, and N/A with 48 IDA's. No budget limits but I don't need to waste Benjamin's on unnecessary stuff. I want an engine that will last several hundred passes before a rebuild.
1..What pistons/cylinders? - Forged Mahle... Forged AA slipper skirts... Weisco
2..When does wedgmating become necessary?
I do not think that its absolutely nessessary either for the power goal. but it wouldŽnt hurt for extra safety..
3..What cam for a maximum 7200 RPM shift point?
That depends heavily on the rest of the combo.
4..Which 44x37.5 heads?... CB Street Eliminators or CB 044 "Super Pro"
5..Exhaust size? 1 5/8"...1 3/4"...1 7/8"
6..What clutch and pressure plate?...Stage 1...stage 2...Copperhead disc...Berg 3 puk disc
Light car, 200-230 hp. stage 2 and a copperhead is plenty.
7..Thoughts on possibly e-85 fuel?
8..Wild guesses on 48 IDA venturies and jetting?
9..Are there any "Pro Stock" sized velocity stacks fit inside CB or K&N 48 IDA air cleaners?
Any other considerations or suggestions to throw out there? |
I agree on the "kits"
Since its a race engine, may I suggest a set of CEŽs instead. As for cam choice. Eventhough I like it a lot, the 86C is getting "small" in that context, and would be on the lower side of power, but will keep up due to the massive torque it typically produces. You are in FK87/FK46 country. A Raptor 01006 would be a real nice choice too.
Definitely 1 3/4" header.
With the IDAŽs you might want to consider a set of JPM Raptor venturies. That might be icing on the cake, but they make the IDAŽs work so nice and typically releases 5 - 12 hp dependant on the set up. I would think 40 maybe 42 mm. I do not think that the pro stacks fit inside K&N filters without slight cutting.
Then you can be in the 210-220 hp range and have power to spare when you do bracket racing.
That is one way of doing it.
T |
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Please tell me more details about the Rapture cam and IDA parts. I am not familiar with the European stuff.
I don't mind running 11.60's or .70's but I have no desire to go quicker. It gets to the point it would be cheaper to buy a good used 11 second Mustang then to build a $10,000 VW engine. I can quickly add 50-75 Lbs. barbell weights to slow down for the 12.00 Index races. I really thing 210 HP would be more then enough.
Nothing is yet set in stone. I am still open to all suggestions and the opportunity to learn new things.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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neil68
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Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:46 pm Post subject: 200 HP |
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I have a few JPM parts including the 44 mm Raptor venturies, Stage 2 stepped header and #06908 Raptor Camshaft (similar to FK47, but with smoother ramps).
So far, I have over 200 HP to the wheels, but I'm still tuning this combo.
CSP carries JPM parts:
http://www.csp-shop.com/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_...p;sbeg=JPM
You can go to the shopping cart to find out the USA price, as the export price is lower than the EU list prices.
_________________
Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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the list I gave you will put you in low 11s in that car without too much problem. In fact you'll likely have to do something to slow it down to the bracket you are in, like 37mm venturis, etc.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
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raymon covey
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Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject: 11 second car. |
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| John's post is right on track. I have a similar car slightly heavier than your buggy. Only difference FK10 cam, 12-1 compression, my last outing 7.09 and 101.35 in 1/8 mile. Mahle pistons, empi 84 crank chevy journal, 5.5 rods. 42 vents 48 ida. self ported street elem heads. I shift at 6800. |
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Brian
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, you should buy a set of the super-pro heads. I don't think it will matter what brand of cam, or 82 stroke or 84, but those heads HELL YES.
Race gas has longer shelf life. I like e-85 for daily driver use but it likes to absorb water over time. |
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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What size oil sump for 7200 RPM?
What size head studs for 200 HP?
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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madmike
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Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:51 am Post subject: |
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4 Qt Berg
8mm will work but some guys insist on 10's 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 7:07 am Post subject: |
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I run 8mm studs on both my big motors, no problems. I'd go with SuperPro's. Definitely the AA or Wiseco's. the weight difference between them and the Mahle's is incredible. I use AAs and they are a very nice piston. I compared them with my buddies Wisecos and I'm sure there are internal differences but the machining and finish was just as good. I've always run venturiis 2mm smaller than my intake valves
brad |
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raymon covey
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Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I run a 4 quart berg and 8mm German vw. |
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neil68
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Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:31 pm Post subject: 2332 cc |
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Berg 3.5 quart sump & Scat 8 mm head studs for me. Over 600 drag races in my street-strip Beetle, still on the original main bearings. Rev limiter set anywhere from 7200-8000 rpm.
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Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Alstrup
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Brian
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