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Critter1
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2004
Posts: 1575
Location: Sacramento
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 Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:06 am Post subject: 67 left inner tie rod end - straight or angled? |
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Based on the pitman arm that I have, can someone definitively tell me if I need the 9* angled inner left tie rod end? Its a 67 pan, beam, parts.. and I no longer have the original tie rod ends that were taken off during disassembly. In my pics, it appears (to me) that the angled tie rod would be needed... but since the pan is jacked up, and the suspension is sagging, it might all straighten out once on the ground..
Reading through search posts, there seems to be some confusion as to which year begins the angled tie rod. Is it 67.. Is it 68..?
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EasternNotch
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Joined: January 19, 2006
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Location: Boston Metro West
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Critter1
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2004
Posts: 1575
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Ahh... Now that makes sense to me. Thank you.
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Erik G
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Location: Tejas!
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Critter1
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2004
Posts: 1575
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Does someone have one they'll part with? I'll throw a wanted ad up too.
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Critter1
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2004
Posts: 1575
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| EasternNotch wrote: |
all years have an angled tie rod end on the DS inner
difference is that the 68 got a bit larger - many people replace it with a straight one and claim to never have issues. I have the angled one in both my cars. |
Where was the change for 68? Was it the thread size into the tie rod or into the pitman arm?
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13280
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Critter1 wrote: |
| EasternNotch wrote: |
all years have an angled tie rod end on the DS inner
difference is that the 68 got a bit larger - many people replace it with a straight one and claim to never have issues. I have the angled one in both my cars. |
Where was the change for 68? Was it the thread size into the tie rod or into the pitman arm? |
the change was at vin # 317 500 000
I think it's the shank length and not the thread size but I may be wrong. Someone posted pictures one (I think it was Bob Notch) but I can't find it now
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squaretobehip
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2004
Posts: 3693
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| Critter1 wrote: |
| EasternNotch wrote: |
all years have an angled tie rod end on the DS inner
difference is that the 68 got a bit larger - many people replace it with a straight one and claim to never have issues. I have the angled one in both my cars. |
Where was the change for 68? Was it the thread size into the tie rod or into the pitman arm? |
the change was at vin # 317 500 000
I think it's the shank length and not the thread size but I may be wrong. Someone posted pictures one (I think it was Bob Notch) but I can't find it now |
Rod size/thread never changed, it's the size of the hole on the steering arm.
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EasternNotch
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2006
Posts: 634
Location: Boston Metro West
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Hard to tell in this picture but here is a shot of them both:
61-68 on top
68> bottom
Ignore other differences the only thing that matters is the 'shoulder' below the rubber boot you can see how the 68> is larger when it goes into the drop arm (pitman)
I may have one I could part with PM me
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Critter1
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2004
Posts: 1575
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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PM sent.
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7544
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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If you have your car lowered, the need for the angled tie rod end diminishes.
Many who run lowered all the time don't use it on purpose.
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Critter1
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2004
Posts: 1575
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Clatter wrote: |
If you have your car lowered, the need for the angled tie rod end diminishes.
Many who run lowered all the time don't use it on purpose. |
Good point. It's lowered one outer spline from stock, and with Berts drop spindles. I'll have to keep an eye on it once its on the ground with the body weight. Good to have both options I suppose.
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typ drei fasty
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Joined: July 28, 2008
Posts: 39
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Is there a recommended amount of lowering that decreases the need for the angled rod? I need most new front end parts and am lowered just one outer click in front. I see the angled rods available, but it is clearly much easier and cheaper to go straight.
Thanks for any thoughts. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Also on a stock non lowered car....not having the angled rod shortens the life of the boot. It keeps the boot tight, at an angle...insuring that it tears early and craps out.
The type 4 cars like mine have both inner tie rods of that part # with 9° bend.
I also found a solution to it if you want to do a little fabbing. I posted pictures under solution for 9° tie rod ends in the 411/412 forum. I may have posted it here as well. Ray |
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ataraxia
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Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I also found a solution to it if you want to do a little fabbing. I posted pictures under solution for 9° tie rod ends in the 411/412 forum. I may have posted it here as well. Ray |
Given that these are repopped now, it'll be hard to find value in fabricating one. I have yet to find that to be the case with Mario's parts. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I also found a solution to it if you want to do a little fabbing. I posted pictures under solution for 9° tie rod ends in the 411/412 forum. I may have posted it here as well. Ray |
Given that these are repopped now, it'll be hard to find value in fabricating one. I have yet to find that to be the case with Mario's parts. |
Value? To who?......
Not for you maybe.
The type 4, has totally different suspension. It does not work well with, crappy quality loose tie rod ends.
Also...repopped?.....hardly. the only people I have foune offering the 9° tie rod end is ISP west.....and they were out of stock for so long last year I blew, them off.....also....I could not get an answer on brand or quality level. Bearing in mind that on my car...412.....there are any number of reasons why the inner tie rod ends may beed to be removed knce a year for servicing one part or another in the front end.
Unlike a type e or type 1.....there is no way to use any kind of press......so the pickle fork must be used....which destroys the boot about 75% of the time. ....and damages, the joint about 50% of the time.
If you are looking for TIGHT inner 9° tie rod ends......of known quality.....your options are nearly unobtanium except for NOS from certain companies.
I sectioned a dozen old tie rod ends last summer and photographed them. The stock VW....while excellent and mostly made by OCAP back in the day....suffer on the shelf. 40 years ago nylon 6 packings dont last well on the shelf.
Between Federal Mogul (Moog) Flennor, Raybestos, Delco, Ocap, Mahle, TRW and two others whose names escape me at the moment.....all of which I spent time on the phone with reps from....not one still manufactures the 9° tie rod end.....and all but two stopped almost 10 years ago.
In fact...as Federal Mogul noted.....they are discontinuing the vast majority of their specialty inner tie rod ends....because over 90% of all cars built in the last decade.....do not use inner
tie rod ends......most have power steering or rack and pinion.
So......better start collecting some spares while you can.
The best made tie rod end I have ever found are the old design of TRW.....with the full ball, 360° nylon 12 packing and no spring. They last forever unless you lose the boot. TRW.....now that they have changed hands a zillion times...quit making joints that way about 7 years ago because they are far too stiff for modern power steering with torque sensing. Nothing needs jojnts that tight anymore.
I collected 4 NOS TRW joints for my build.....but have not been able to get the 9° in that thpe of joint.....so I found a solution with minor fab work to allow me to use the straight, version with a 9° chromoly adapter. Ray |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I also found a solution to it if you want to do a little fabbing. I posted pictures under solution for 9° tie rod ends in the 411/412 forum. I may have posted it here as well. Ray |
Given that these are repopped now, it'll be hard to find value in fabricating one. I have yet to find that to be the case with Mario's parts. |
Value? To who?......
Not for you maybe.
The type 4, has totally different suspension. It does not work well with, crappy quality loose tie rod ends.
Also...repopped?.....hardly. the only people I have foune offering the 9° tie rod end is ISP west.....and they were out of stock for so long last year I blew, them off.....also....I could not get an answer on brand or quality level. Bearing in mind that on my car...412.....there are any number of reasons why the inner tie rod ends may beed to be removed knce a year for servicing one part or another in the front end.
Unlike a type e or type 1.....there is no way to use any kind of press......so the pickle fork must be used....which destroys the boot about 75% of the time. ....and damages, the joint about 50% of the time.
If you are looking for TIGHT inner 9° tie rod ends......of known quality.....your options are nearly unobtanium except for NOS from certain companies.
I sectioned a dozen old tie rod ends last summer and photographed them. The stock VW....while excellent and mostly made by OCAP back in the day....suffer on the shelf. 40 years ago nylon 6 packings dont last well on the shelf.
Between Federal Mogul (Moog) Flennor, Raybestos, Delco, Ocap, Mahle, TRW and two others whose names escape me at the moment.....all of which I spent time on the phone with reps from....not one still manufactures the 9° tie rod end.....and all but two stopped almost 10 years ago.
In fact...as Federal Mogul noted.....they are discontinuing the vast majority of their specialty inner tie rod ends....because over 90% of all cars built in the last decade.....do not use inner
tie rod ends......most have power steering or rack and pinion.
So......better start collecting some spares while you can.
The best made tie rod end I have ever found are the old design of TRW.....with the full ball, 360° nylon 12 packing and no spring. They last forever unless you lose the boot. TRW.....now that they have changed hands a zillion times...quit making joints that way about 7 years ago because they are far too stiff for modern power steering with torque sensing. Nothing needs jojnts that tight anymore.
I collected 4 NOS TRW joints for my build.....but have not been able to get the 9° in that thpe of joint.....so I found a solution with minor fab work to allow me to use the straight, version with a 9° chromoly adapter. Ray |
We've been here before.
Value to the masses - who are highly unlikely to cobble together a part that's available off the shelf. If that's what you're into, great, but know that for a part like this - most people won't follow suit.
There are at least 4 different sources for the inner left tie rod with the correct 9° bend right now in the classifieds, so the cry of "unobtanium/rare" isn't warranted. Lemforder tie rods in NOS condition are not 'impossible' to find and they work just fine. TRW parts of late are, in my experience, of terrible quality. I'll take a NOS Lemforder over a TRW tie rod any day. I'm not taking my car on a concours race or entering the Baja 1000, so Lemforders or Moogs work just fine.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1803185
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1806146
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1686640 (whole tie rod with both ends)
and
The left inner tie rods are being manufactured: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1809979
If you're here to complain about lack of availability of Type 4 parts, you're in the wrong forum...setting off alarms for no reason.
The sky isn't always falling - sometimes you just need to get out from under the tree. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Yes....  ...we have been here before! And you are correct...but on two counts only...
1. True.....the masses will not buy this mod.
Who gives a shit about the masses?  ....I'm not in business to make parts for people (and if and when I am.....machine work is not what I would sell) If they want this info....contact me. Its free.........and....no 9° bent ends are rarely available in the classifieds.....unless you found the rarity of someone who actually knows what it is.....and actually has it.
Over a period of a year.....responding to ALL pf those in the Samba and STF selling this part by part #......not ONE was the correct part. Not one had a 9° bend.
That was three joints from Samba....one from STF.......and three from E-BAY.....not one was a 9° angled end. During this whole time....ISP West.....had nothing. Seven people....yeah....parts are just, showering from the sky....bent tie rods all over the place!
Of course I spent a pile in shipping....and most of the sellers were assholes.....you ask the question "is this the 9° bent version of this part #"......and get "yes".....back.....and the wrong tie rod end shows up. Or......you get....."its the correct part # that you asked for".......which is correct because ALL MANUFACTURERS have superseded the 9° part # and merged them because only 5 vehicles (none of which has been produced in 30 years).....ever used this angled tie rod end.
So....try to find ES419L or ES419R.....both of which were originally available in 9° ....and you will find only straight. Searching by the original type 3 part # is even worse.....as most vendors or sites who know that part # .....are those who are simply regurgitating a list of part numbers on their site....and have no idea of any part,# differences.
2. Yes....I agree....as of late....about the past 6-7 years....TRW parts have really suffered in quality.
However as I noted in my original post......I am talking about TRW parts made over a decade ago. They are easily recognizable because they have totally different construction than anything out there.
TRW has changed hands many times. The last time they made good suspension joints of this type is, when they were part of COFAP and Kelsey Hayes.
By the way....Lemfoerder joints are identical internally to Flennor...at least now. And with the level of complaints Lemfoerder has been getting, as of late....I would guess that they are probably made in the same Chinese plant and reboxed in Germany.....that and Lemfoerder lists at least five companies in five countries.
And no....im not here to hitch about type 4 parts. Its a type 3 part #.
And as you can note from my original post.....I simply offered a cheap, simple, eftective solution to those who will have a hard time finding this joint. ....and there will be plenty.
If you have a drill press, a vise and a tap wrench.....you can make an adapter in about 2 hours. It was free info.......
But hey......its the standard bullshit anzwer I have come to expect from the type 3 crowd in general. .......everyone running around in circles nibbling at the same diminishing pile of rusting NOS and junk yard or poor quality re-Pops.......and little desire to learn or try something new........which is why I spend so little time here.
Ray |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:32 am Post subject: |
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We will have to agree to disagree on the availability of the correct inner left tie rod. I've never had a hard time finding them...even when I'm not looking for them. As far as buying parts and then receiving the wrong part: File a PayPal claim if they ship the wrong part. Before buying: Ask for a visual comparison - all it takes is a ruler against the top of the tie rod to see if it's correct. "Buyer Beware" really does come into play with this part - I will agree on that point. Buying from known sources is a great first step because they're more likely to work with you to resolve an issue.
The Lemforder tie rods that I have are of a certain 'vintage' and I've used them over the years on several beams - none of which have had an issue with this specific part so I consider them to be reliable and worth my money. I'd concede that most newer versions of this specific part are very cheaply made. "Country of Origin" is one of my first questions when it comes to part manufacturing site.
The nice thing about buying the old tie rods is that you can remove the boot, flush out the crunchy grease, fill it with new grease, replace the boot and, in most cases, it's good as new. |
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