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Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
Your cleanliness will be appreciated.

Your endplay, however, sounds obtuse. Five thou is the wear limit. .0027" is allowed (and preferred,) and since the end play can only wear larger, not smaller, why not try to nail .003"? I don't trust the HF micrometer to shoot for .0027"! Razz

I will steal your sharpie trick. It would have saved me a days time and a new set of bearings… Laughing

Robbie


I try to keep it clean... Its an uphill battle LOL

As far as the endplay goes, the red Wilson book says 0.003-0.005, with 0.006 being the wear limit (I believe the actual VW min is 0.0027 as you stated). Although this is the VW recommendation, my background is in performance engines, and I've developed the habit of setting things on the looser side in general when I build. This engine is far from factory VW, and in the end is just a mechanical device, so I tend to use the VW stuff as general guidelines and adjust as I see fit.

As far as my HF made in china dial indicator... it should fit right in with the rest of the made in china engine parts Laughing

The sharpie trick is handy.. Sometimes its just hard to tell if the bearing is seated, so its a nice check to have. No fun pinching a bearing and having to buy another set.
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vee Dub Nut wrote:


richparker wrote:
What's your plan for the full flow set up and what size oil pump are you gonna use? Are you planning on a sump?


I'm using a typical pump outlet cover, and returning to the "normal" location. I haven't put the mustache bar up to the case yet, so I don't know how the overall fit will be. I'm assuming I'll have to do some massaging of the parts.



I realized I didn't mention the oil pump size.. I'm using a 26mm Berg pump. Its just a Shadeck pump that has been hard anodized, and oring'ed.
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Made more progress on the motor this weekend... As I had hoped, I did managed to get the long block all the way together (minus installing the rocker assy).

A few pics along the way...

Don't forget the deflector tins before putting the heads and pushrod tubes in (been there done that Rolling Eyes )! I use black RTV under the jugs where they mate to the case. This has worked very well for me in the past, and is pretty easy to clean up later.

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Top end installed on one side. My only complaint so far on the 043 china castings is that the head stud holes are really intended for 8mm studs. While the 10mm studs will fit, they are SNUG.

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Again.. Didn't take too many pictures, but repeat on the other side and you get this:

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Also did some test fitting of the mustache bar, and got the full flow fitting on the oil pump oriented correctly. I did have to notch the backside of the bar to give a little room for the fitting at the pump.

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Also did a bunch of tin fitting to round things off. Didn't get many pictures here, but there isn't much to show. Being that I'm using a bubble top case, you have to trim the bottom of the shroud some. No big deal, just take your time and cut a little bit at a time, test fit, and repeat. Easier to cut a little more than try to add metal back Laughing

I also modify the cylinder tins around the intake manifold area to make room for the offset IDF intakes, and trim back the inner spark plug deflectors to make sure the tin sits all the way back on the engine and is not pushed out from the wider deck of the engine, and the deflectors are positioned right up next to the head.

Lastly is the lower tins, which I've changed up quite a bit since I'm running a merged header and no heater boxes. Generally I'm in the camp of "run all the original tins", but I make some exceptions here due to the different hardware I'm using.

After fitting everything, I tore it all back down and loaded up the ones that need sandblasting before paint. I'm hoping to get all the pieces painted early this week so I can stab the engine back into the Bus this weekend.
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Last edited by Vee Dub Nut on Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Love the nice, clean assembly and organization.

Question? Why use 10MM studs on the heads? My understanding is the 8mm allow for more stretch and expanding and contracting?
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
Love the nice, clean assembly and organization.

Question? Why use 10MM studs on the heads? My understanding is the 8mm allow for more stretch and expanding and contracting?


Thanks.. I try to keep it neat and organized. Lets just hope it runs as well as it looks.

RE: head studs: In this particular case, its because I had bought this CB case some time back for a turbo build for my 67 T1 but it never got built. So its just what I had on the shelf along with the chromoly head studs.

8mm would be more than sufficient in this application for sure, and likely preferred. I like 8mm studs in original style mag cases in general. With the aftermarket cases, I've tended to jump to the 10mm studs because of the type of motors I've played around with in the past.
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74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Made some more progress... was hoping to be running this weekend, but didn't make enough progress during last week to pull that off (had been doing some truck shopping, in which I picked up a new daily driver, and been doing maintenance on it).

Got the tins all cleaned and painted, and started assembly.

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Don't forget to put some foam on your oil cooler to help the seal to the shroud

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Here is the foam I use.. I pick it up from Lowes

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Getting there!

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Still need to match port the intakes, install the rocker assembly, and get it stabbed into the Bus. Then carbs, exhaust, a little wiring, and hopefully test firing and cam run in!
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74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

That's looking awesome!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Stuartzickefoose wrote:
That's looking awesome!


Thanks! I hope it runs as good as it looks Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Incremental progress being made around the typical holiday happenings.. Doesn't look like I'm going to get it installed and fired before Christmas as I had hoped, but it should be shortly after.

Match ported the intake manifolds last night. Sort of a messy job, but pretty quick once I got the hang of keeping the burr lubed so it wouldn't load up and quit cutting.

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And here is an aluminum dust angel.. (its like a snow angel, except in a south Texas garage on a warm December night LOL). Merry Christmas all!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Jeez, that's looking gooooood!
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Vee Dub Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Made some more progress... Still got a ways to go before its "finished" and ready to drive, but I'm over some of the bigger hurdles.

Ultimately got the motor, carbs, and exhaust installed, and then I hooked up some temporary wiring, crank case breather, and full flow filter so I could run in the cam. Ran the full 20 minute cam break-in with no issues, and the first oil dump came out looking good.

Engine is fairly "mechanical" sounding. I went back over the valve adjustment after the initial run-in and that quieted things down quite a bit. I also still need to get some additional shims for my rockers, as I have two rockers on the 3/4 side that have too much sideplay and need to be shimmed up some. That should help quite a bit too.

Biggest issue is some question on the oil pressure. Overall it is lower than I'd expect it to be on cold start, and again while warm at higher RPMs. Hot idle oil pressure is really good (20psi ish), so I don't think its a sealing issue between the oil relief piston and case (I've had that issue with another aftermarket AL case. Quality machining doesn't seem to exist in the aftermarket). It appears that the oil relief piston spring (one near the flywheel end, an original german spring) is on the weak side, allowing the piston to open too quickly and limiting max pressure (about 40psi max). All internal bearing clearances are good (measured and confirmed when built), and I'm using a known good 26mm Shadeck oil pump, so the relief piston is my only real suspect. 10w30 oil for what its worth. Need to dig through my parts stash to see if I have any other original german springs to compare its spring rate too. I do have some "booster" springs, but I don't really like those. I can also shim the german spring as another option. Done that before too. I'll post up what my final solution ends up being.

A few pics and a video...

Getting it squeezed it in there

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Removed the old oil bath air cleaner stand in a manner where it can be reinstalled if I ever go back to a smaller motor. Didn't have any good paint at the moment, so its still in primer until I can get something.

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Everything lined up well and dropped into place

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Now with the exhaust and carbs installed.

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The header is a full merged 1-5/8 Bugpack streetmax header. It does clear everything OK, but the mustache bar does have to be clearanced a bit along the top seam (mine was already shaved by the PO). It will also allow me to run flanged big bore heater boxes in the future. I live in south Texas, so lack of heat is not really a huge deal for a good majority of the year, but I plan to put heater boxes back in eventually. The muffler is a dynomax turbo muffler from CB. As its targeted for T1's, to me it seems to hang a little low right now. Not sure how it will look with the bumper and all back on, but I'm probably going to have to cut and move things to get it where I want it. Its also a little on the loud side for my tastes these days. Guess I'm starting to get old Laughing

The 40 HPMXs seem pretty well spot on. Their stock jetting is decent, but I bumped up the mains to start out. I disassembled and cleaned them before installing, and they were cleaner internally then the last set of new webers I handled. Their float height was spot on too. The linkage however, despite it being the deluxe EMPI hexbar setup, is NOT as nice as the CB stuff in my opinion. It will do for now, but I will likely change things in the future.

Here is a quick video of it idling after the cam break-in. She sounds nice, and rev's really quick and crisp. This engine should really wake the Bus up considerably.


Link


Things to do still:

-Finalize the full flow plumbing, oil filter, and external cooler mounting.
-Minor wiring for the new coil and alternator
-Crank case breather plumbing
-Install all my gauges (tach, oil press, oil temp)
-Accelerator/clutch cable replacement
-Some other small odds and ends
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Nice job, looks and sounds great!

I'm a little shocked you're not running heat exchangers. I understand it's warm there in Texas but the defrost feature is nice to have in the rain. I think Brian is/was (he got a new set up in Pomona) running a similar exhaust set up. They are great but that large bend in the muffler sticks way past the bumper and people tend to burn themselfs. That fully merged header is nice looking but it to is longer and pushes the muffler further out. All looks though, I'm sure the header/muffler combo will give great flow and performance.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

richparker wrote:
Nice job, looks and sounds great!


Thanks.. the engine does sound nice and crisp overall, albeit a tad loud.

richparker wrote:
I'm a little shocked you're not running heat exchangers. I understand it's warm there in Texas but the defrost feature is nice to have in the rain.


Yea the defrost is the biggest thing I'll be lacking without a heater. Even then, around here its not needed real regularly too. I do plan to get a set of the flanged big bore boxes down the road. I don't plan for my Bus to be a fair weather type vehicle like some of my other VW's. For now though, it was a $$ thing, so all I picked up was the header itself.

richparker wrote:
I think Brian is/was (he got a new set up in Pomona) running a similar exhaust set up. They are great but that large bend in the muffler sticks way past the bumper and people tend to burn themselfs. That fully merged header is nice looking but it to is longer and pushes the muffler further out. All looks though, I'm sure the header/muffler combo will give great flow and performance.


I do expect the u-bend off of the merged header to protrude past the bumper some. That doesn't bother too me much, and I've come to expect it/gotten used to it on my other big motor'ed VW's. Unfortunately there is not much you can do (besides a sidewinder, $$$$) where you can still get a true full merged header tucked completely under the body. On top of that, any of the short merged headers I've found are all too small (typically 1-3/8"). This motor needs to have a minimum of 1-1/2", but I'm running 1-5/8" as that is what is readily available (cost effectively speaking).

A bigger issue for me is if it hangs down too low, which I can adjust. Its hard to tell where its going to sit relative to the body/bumper yet. I'll see once its 100% back together and adjust from there.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Down Texas way, I'd say run 10w40. 30 is minimal protection with the warm temps there. Probably quiet things down some more.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

1967250s wrote:
Down Texas way, I'd say run 10w40. 30 is minimal protection with the warm temps there. Probably quiet things down some more.


What oil to use gets beat to death around here like ball joints. Recently some of the boys in Socal and southern AZ have been posting that they are have cooler temps running 10/30, upwards of 10* on the freeway. I believe the reason is that the thinner oil flows through the cooler better. My stomping ground goes from 12,000' of the San Juan mountains in SW Colorado, southern Utah, all the way down to the deserts of Tucson in southern AZ. I've been running Castrol GTX 10/30 in my strokers for several years with no cooling issues.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

1967250s wrote:
Down Texas way, I'd say run 10w40. 30 is minimal protection with the warm temps there. Probably quiet things down some more.


Thanks for the input, but I'll respectfully disagree... Oil selection depends on A LOT of factors, but a quality 10W30 is more than sufficient if the engine is built correctly. VW recommended 30wt FWIW. I've got quite a bit of background working with lubricant/engine compatibility. Wink

My comment regarding it sounding mechanical is mostly attributed to the chromoly pushrods (which loosened up, but have since been readjusted), and solid shaft rockers that need to be shimmed up more.
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67 Beetle (1500sp, 1776dp, 1915NA, 1915T fuel injected, 2276NA, 2276T fuel injected, 2084NA, 2056 T4, back to the trusty 1600dp)

74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Vee Dub Nut wrote:
Biggest issue is some question on the oil pressure. Overall it is lower than I'd expect it to be on cold start, and again while warm at higher RPMs. Hot idle oil pressure is really good (20psi ish), so I don't think its a sealing issue between the oil relief piston and case (I've had that issue with another aftermarket AL case. Quality machining doesn't seem to exist in the aftermarket). It appears that the oil relief piston spring (one near the flywheel end, an original german spring) is on the weak side, allowing the piston to open too quickly and limiting max pressure (about 40psi max). All internal bearing clearances are good (measured and confirmed when built), and I'm using a known good 26mm Shadeck oil pump, so the relief piston is my only real suspect. 10w30 oil for what its worth. Need to dig through my parts stash to see if I have any other original german springs to compare its spring rate too. I do have some "booster" springs, but I don't really like those. I can also shim the german spring as another option. Done that before too. I'll post up what my final solution ends up being.


Pulled my oil relief and control pistons/springs tonigh, then I dug up two other sets pulled from two old dual relief cases I had lying around. What I found was quite a large variance in spring lengths and tensions across all of them.

Looks like BOTH springs I had installed (relief and control springs) are noticeably shorter than the two other sets I have. The oil control spring was especially short and light feeling compared to at least one of the others. This is where I suspect that my maximum oil pressure limit is coming from. I have the chart from the Bently manual that shows the correct loads and compressed length, so I'll check them on the small scales at work tomorrow. For grins, I also ordered a set of new OE springs from CB performance too. I'll get some measurements amd select my best guess to reinstall and test from there.

Here are the springs in question

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Also mounted my full flow filter and tstat for the external cooler.

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[/img]
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67 Beetle (1500sp, 1776dp, 1915NA, 1915T fuel injected, 2276NA, 2276T fuel injected, 2084NA, 2056 T4, back to the trusty 1600dp)

74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Well not really the update I was hoping for, but stuff happens. This ended up being my weekend, instead of out cruising and tuning the new motor...

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Long story short.. I did get the previously mentioned max oil pressure issue resolved. There are several subtle differences in the relief valve machining between this AL case and an original mag case I had to compare to, and I ultimately replaced my old pressure control piston spring with a new OE VW spring and ran about a 0.2" shim which yielded the correct/desired behavior. Excellent hot idle oil pressure of 15-20lbs, and regulated max pressure of about 60lbs. I played around with several springs (including a booster spring) and shim combinations which was quite an interesting exercise.

But with that victory came some defeat. During the process of playing with the pressure control springs I had dumped the second oil charge out of the engine and noticed some little specs floating about. Wasn't anything too dramatic, but just enough to make me question. Did a little more diagnostic work and eventually noticed that the endplay had opened up from my original setting. This will be a new one on me, but I went ahead and bit the bullet and got the engine back out and on the stand. Curious to see what I find from there.

So with that setback, I decided to throw the 1600 back in Bus. There are a few events and things coming up in the next few weeks that I wanted to do in the Bus, so this was a quick way to get me up and running for now. Should be back on the road by the end of the week. Figured I'd shoot a quick refresh of paint on the shroud and tins (different set than my big motor) before I reinstall. Also going to keep running the 40 HPMX's on the 1600 which should be quite an upgrade from the 30/31 carb that I was using before. Laughing

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74 Transporter (2.0 T4, SOHC EJ25) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

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Bala
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Sorry to hear about the set-back, but that engine sure was looking/sounding good!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Vee Dub Nut's 68 Westy Reply with quote

Did a little more diagnostic work and eventually noticed that the endplay had opened up from my original setting.
How much?
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