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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:39 am Post subject: Rebuilding an 091 transaxle |
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We just got back from Yosemite. The trans in the bus shifts and works well but it is getting to the edge of tired. I spoke with Rick from Long Enterprises about it but with him retiring he really is done taking in new rebuilds - too many things going on right now to take any more jobs in. Since I have rebuilt many trans myself on other cars I've decided to take it on. $1800 in parts and jigs came in the day before we left for Yosemite. Maybe next month when I have more time I'll pull the trans and start the process. Rick will still be around to do the sliders or exchange them. I am 65 now so not interested in a new business but his will be a good income for someone younger looking to set up a business and build a future. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I have almost all the tools to do the 091, and have looked thru the CD. Nothing I haven't seen before. The only thing that concerns me is that the trans really would be better in a stand of some kind rather than flopping around on a work bench - especially when it comes time to torque the pinion nut to 160 FT LB. Here are a couple threads of the tools used to hold an 091 and do the press work. Rick does not have these and I cannot find anyone who does. One would think because of their size these things get passed around once someone retires from their bus, Vanagon or Sandrail.
JWPATE wrote: |
I will close out this thread with a shot of the completed transmission holding fixture. I was just about finished with it when to my great surprise, Alaric Hernandez sent me an email with an offer for the factory version, and that is it behind my home-made tool. We have many great members in this Samba forum........Alaric has to be among the best.
Actually I shall probably use both tools as time goes by. I added a couple of stabilizer legs, three in all - while the factory tool only uses one. Notice how much stronger the factory tool is built - it is ready for tough day-after-day use and abuse. That VW tool is more universal in design though and actually will have to be altered in order to use it with the waterboxer transmissions.
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Also the 456A to use on a press
Whitney wrote: |
Hello all,
I've decided I need to learn to rebuild my transmissions, as I have 4 VW's to keep alive and running. One is 2wd '87 Westy, '89 Syncro Tristar, '87 Sunroof Syncro, and '71 Westy. Unfortunately I have to start with one of the Syncro 094 trannys. I'm trying to start collecting tools, but many are hard to find, so I'm also going to fabricate some as I go. I have searched a lot, but not been able to find dimensions anywhere. To begin, I'd like to make the VW 309 plate, and 352 strap to hold the trans in a bench clamp. Also want to fab the 456 stand to hold gear carrier in the press. I've included a couple drawings of the 456 and 309 below, based on my best guess from photos I could find. Would anyone who owns these be willing to make corrections or offer input? If you could just tell me that on tool (#), dimension X should be dimension Y, or brief description, it would be much appreciated. I know that the original tools are probably all built to metric dimensions, but I see and think in inches, then convert where necessary. I will repost corrected drawings for all to share.
I didn't radius corners to make dimensioning clearer here.
I found this 313 recently and cleaned it up, mounted to my bench, so I know the tube diameter I need to weld to the 309. Looks like 63mm for the Krebsfer, not sure if the Matra 313 uses same tube.
I managed to press shafts out of my gear carrier using some blocks of wood, but would much rather make this tool.
Thanks for any help.
Whitney |
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:54 am Post subject: |
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SGKent wrote: |
I have almost all the tools to do the 091, and have looked thru the CD. Nothing I haven't seen before. The only thing that concerns me is that the trans really would be better in a stand of some kind rather than flopping around on a work bench - especially when it comes time to torque the pinion nut to 160 FT LB. Here are a couple threads of the tools used to hold an 091 and do the press work. Rick does not have these and I cannot find anyone who does. One would think because of their size these things get passed around once someone retires from their bus, Vanagon or Sandrail.
JWPATE wrote: |
I will close out this thread with a shot of the completed transmission holding fixture. I was just about finished with it when to my great surprise, Alaric Hernandez sent me an email with an offer for the factory version, and that is it behind my home-made tool. We have many great members in this Samba forum........Alaric has to be among the best.
Actually I shall probably use both tools as time goes by. I added a couple of stabilizer legs, three in all - while the factory tool only uses one. Notice how much stronger the factory tool is built - it is ready for tough day-after-day use and abuse. That VW tool is more universal in design though and actually will have to be altered in order to use it with the waterboxer transmissions.
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Also the 456A to use on a press
Whitney wrote: |
Hello all,
I've decided I need to learn to rebuild my transmissions, as I have 4 VW's to keep alive and running. One is 2wd '87 Westy, '89 Syncro Tristar, '87 Sunroof Syncro, and '71 Westy. Unfortunately I have to start with one of the Syncro 094 trannys. I'm trying to start collecting tools, but many are hard to find, so I'm also going to fabricate some as I go. I have searched a lot, but not been able to find dimensions anywhere. To begin, I'd like to make the VW 309 plate, and 352 strap to hold the trans in a bench clamp. Also want to fab the 456 stand to hold gear carrier in the press. I've included a couple drawings of the 456 and 309 below, based on my best guess from photos I could find. Would anyone who owns these be willing to make corrections or offer input? If you could just tell me that on tool (#), dimension X should be dimension Y, or brief description, it would be much appreciated. I know that the original tools are probably all built to metric dimensions, but I see and think in inches, then convert where necessary. I will repost corrected drawings for all to share.
I didn't radius corners to make dimensioning clearer here.
I found this 313 recently and cleaned it up, mounted to my bench, so I know the tube diameter I need to weld to the 309. Looks like 63mm for the Krebsfer, not sure if the Matra 313 uses same tube.
I managed to press shafts out of my gear carrier using some blocks of wood, but would much rather make this tool.
Thanks for any help.
Whitney |
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Over the years I have been lucky to find many of these. I rebuilt a lot of manual US trans way back in the 60's because I was an idiot kid with a 3 speed. (still crazy after all these years), and over the years built about every known US gearbox and a few British.
About mid 1980's got into the German cars and have done some Porsches and LOTS of 002, 091's 091/1's and a couple 094's.
I searched for the 352 holder and ended up having my local German heritage welding shop make one that attached right to my old Lakewood collapsible engine stand. They did a good job. Not perfect. Version 2 would address that. I'll bet they might make a BATCH for a reasonable price. Split decision on the rolling engine stand mount vs bench vw313 Matra or Krebsfer mount. Sometimes need to have a heavy foot on the leg of the stand when breaking the pinion nut loose.
They would most likely be able to copy my 456A fixture also. (How did I ever live without that?)
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Al - if they give you a quote on both pass it along to me please. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I noticed while looking online that the 352 and 456A tools are still available although expensive. Rick said something about the 091 being larger around and having to mod one of the tools if I found one. Other places say the 352 fits an 091. Does anyone know if these tools fit an 091 out of the box?
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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couldn't tell you
but what I can tell you is if you plan on torqueing the pinion nut, you'd better have it strapped down. I used 2 car tie down straps and set it tits up against my lift. strapped it to my lift and went for it. _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
couldn't tell you
but what I can tell you is if you plan on torqueing the pinion nut, you'd better have it strapped down. I used 2 car tie down straps and set it tits up against my lift. strapped it to my lift and went for it. |
Yes - I see that pinion nut being one of my biggest challenges. I thought about paying someone here in Sacto to build the tools for me but I don't have a spare old 091 case to build it off of. I wrote BigBore to see if he has a solution but have not heard back from him. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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The place I used was Holmes Welding in Hudson, Iowa. I had them make it all one piece so I have a dedicated 352 that just fits into my yoke. NOT THE SAME SIZE AS MATRA OR KREBSFER 313. It just seemed redundant to me. I think the 352 might also bolt to the engine yoke?
We had to relieve the strap to clear the selector shaft boss on the 091/1 and 094. Perhaps tomorrow I will get it from my other shop and take a picture of it. If I was going to make a second one, there are a couple things I would change.
Al _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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69doublecab wrote: |
The place I used was Holmes Welding in Hudson, Iowa. I had them make it all one piece so I have a dedicated 352 that just fits into my yoke. NOT THE SAME SIZE AS MATRA OR KREBSFER 313. It just seemed redundant to me. I think the 352 might also bolt to the engine yoke?
We had to relieve the strap to clear the selector shaft boss on the 091/1 and 094. Perhaps tomorrow I will get it from my other shop and take a picture of it. If I was going to make a second one, there are a couple things I would change.
Al |
Thanks Al - if you still are on speaking terms with the shop and they are still around can you ask them what they would charge to make another and what time frame they would be looking? I can provide the yoke size to my engine stand.
By chance did you have them make you a 456A also or are you just using arbor plates? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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old DKP driver Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:09 pm Post subject: tools |
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sgkent,
how about contacting a couple other guys here that may help you
"gears" lives in Truckee and may have tools to loan
Also, Michael Brewer who live in Costa Mesa has done a lot of 091's
They both post here in the performance/transmission forum
you really don't need to purchase a 456A fixture to remove and reinstall
the gear shafts.
And a case holding fixture can be made with 1/4 in plate stock and mounted on a wood frame to tighten the pinion nut.
You will need the pinion fixture when putting the bearings on the shaft. _________________ V.W.owner since 1967 |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: tools |
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old DKP driver wrote: |
sgkent,
how about contacting a couple other guys here that may help you
"gears" lives in Truckee and may have tools to loan
Also, Michael Brewer who live in Costa Mesa has done a lot of 091's
They both post here in the performance/transmission forum
you really don't need to purchase a 456A fixture to remove and reinstall
the gear shafts.
And a case holding fixture can be made with 1/4 in plate stock and mounted on a wood frame to tighten the pinion nut.
You will need the pinion fixture when putting the bearings on the shaft. |
Thank Chris - I was wondering if that area of the case was strong enough to do that. I couldn't see any reason why not.
Are you thinking of something like this but simply a plate drilled with holes in it and bolted on then attached to a 2x4 maybe 3 - 4' long?
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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old DKP driver Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:35 pm Post subject: 352 fixture |
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Steve,
you can make a strap similar to the 352 and attach it to a small pallet or a couple of 4x4's and it will be enough to hold the transmission to torque the pinion
the late 352 has to be modified to fit the 091 or vanagon transmission.
I really didn't want to interfere here but, I do know what I am talking about and hate to see you spending $$ unneeded for a single build.
I did spent more than 25 years doing this for a living and, there are others here as I mentioned that will gladly help also. _________________ V.W.owner since 1967 |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Fixed link.
Tcash |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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gears provided this in the performance forum. While it is not the ultimate solution - it is a solution and I wanted to post it here in case someone finds this thread and wonders what happened at the end of the story
Several have offered to work something out with the 352 and 456A - maybe we will have one fabricated from theirs or simply use this solution. I'd like a matra VW 352 lengthened for a 091 if we can find one but this will work.
Anyone considering rebuilding their 002 or 091 I would suggest getting Rick's CD and looking it over. When he sells there is no way to know what comes next.
gears wrote: |
For tightening/loosening the pinion bearing nut, all that's needed is a 3' piece of drilled angle iron which serves to hold the transaxle stationary AND keep the socket firmly on the pinion nut.
If you really want a 352 holding fixture, James Pate shows how to make one in his excellent 091/1 rebuild thread. |
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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torque it thru the bearing hole with the trans secured to something. I would be afraid of that setup _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
torque it thru the bearing hole with the trans secured to something. I would be afraid of that setup |
Still trying to find a 352 that has been lengthened for an 091. Or maybe I can find a junk case and have one fabricated. Just not ready to lug the transmission around trying to find someone to fabricate a stand equal to the 352. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Anyone considering rebuilding their 002 or 091 I would suggest getting Rick's CD and looking it over.
X2 well worth it. The 002 requires both cd's. When they are gone that may be it.
Tcash |
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gears Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002 Posts: 4391 Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
torque it thru the bearing hole with the trans secured to something. I would be afraid of that setup |
Actually, "torquing it through the bearing hole" is what I did for years, before I finally used my noggin and made that bar. The job is so simple and straightforward now, I kick myself for not doing this decades ago.
Heck, I still needed a bar bolted in place with blocks between bar and tool, to keep the tool from slipping off the nut .. and I had to continually add "shims" to the block stack to keep the tool perfectly square with the nut.
The bar now serves to: 1) Provide a leverage point to keep the trans from flipping 2) Keep the tool firmly on the nut 3) Keep the tool in proper alignment, even at high torque, as the pinion nut screws onto the last few threads. (The bar sits off the case a tad as you begin tightening the pinion nut, and with each turn, the two nuts on studs holding the bar are also tightened. During final stage of tightening (80 lbs - 160 lbs), the bar is snug against the housing, and there's very little clearance between the 1/2" extension and bar.)
I'd say this job is analogous to using a flywheel lock to hold the flywheel. Never made sense to me. You still have to then secure the engine. Make it easy on yourself .. bolt an angle iron onto the flywheel, place a 4x block on the appropriate side, and simply tighten the flywheel bolt.
Yes, all this work is done on the floor, which doesn't "look as professional" .. yet it seems the smartest and simplest way to me. _________________ aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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gears wrote: |
Quote: |
torque it thru the bearing hole with the trans secured to something. I would be afraid of that setup |
Actually, "torquing it through the bearing hole" is what I did for years, before I finally used my noggin and made that bar. The job is so simple and straightforward now, I kick myself for not doing this decades ago.
Heck, I still needed a bar bolted in place with blocks between bar and tool, to keep the tool from slipping off the nut .. and I had to continually add "shims" to the block stack to keep the tool perfectly square with the nut.
The bar now serves to: 1) Provide a leverage point to keep the trans from flipping 2) Keep the tool firmly on the nut 3) Keep the tool in proper alignment, even at high torque, as the pinion nut screws onto the last few threads. (The bar sits off the case a tad as you begin tightening the pinion nut, and with each turn, the two nuts on studs holding the bar are also tightened. During final stage of tightening (80 lbs - 160 lbs), the bar is snug against the housing, and there's very little clearance between the 1/2" extension and bar.)
I'd say this job is analogous to using a flywheel lock to hold the flywheel. Never made sense to me. You still have to then secure the engine. Make it easy on yourself .. bolt an angle iron onto the flywheel, place a 4x block on the appropriate side, and simply tighten the flywheel bolt.
Yes, all this work is done on the floor, which doesn't "look as professional" .. yet it seems the smartest and simplest way to me. |
Gears - the dynamics of the angle iron looked solid to me because that very picture of a block of wood under a head while tightening a flywheel was in mind. Additionally if the angle iron sits on a similar block at a higher than center angle then the torquing of the pinion put has to also lift the trans case, not just spin it. One can also lever a foot on it. My only concern was is the case wall where the bolts go thru to the angle iron strong enough to not distort or break the case in that area? I see an extra pair of bolts above the angle iron. What are those doing?
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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