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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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bug_65 wrote: |
Your engine is very clean.
Cam followers should only be reused when using the same cam and if used d will cause uneven wear on your cam or failure of the followers. I suggest you replace cam followers with the suggested ones Engle specify. |
Thank you! I will reuse my cam followers, because they are very very clean!! There are no uneven wears at all on them. This engine went only 100 working hours before...
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2348 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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akomjathy wrote: |
bug_65 wrote: |
Your engine is very clean.
Cam followers should only be reused when using the same cam and if used d will cause uneven wear on your cam or failure of the followers. I suggest you replace cam followers with the suggested ones Engle specify. |
Thank you! I will reuse my cam followers, because they are very very clean!! There are no uneven wears at all on them. This engine went only 100 working hours before...
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NO! _________________ Jack Staggs
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Bluemanx212 Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2011 Posts: 55 Location: SK Canada
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Dont do it lifters are cheap and it is a pain in the ass to split the case to change them when they fail and they will! |
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Bluemanx212 wrote: |
Dont do it lifters are cheap and it is a pain in the ass to split the case to change them when they fail and they will! |
What do you think how many miles I can run with the original lifters?? I drive approx. 1500 miles/year. I think I can drive these lifters without any problem for minimum 30000 miles, so that would be like 20 years for me
18 years ago I built a asingle port 1600 ccm engine. I put new lifters (unknown manufacturer) with an Engle W110 cam. This engine still works great without any lifter noise! |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2348 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Camshaft lobes can fail in as little as 500mi. and where do you think that all that ground up metal goes? _________________ Jack Staggs
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jacks wrote: |
Camshaft lobes can fail in as little as 500mi. and where do you think that all that ground up metal goes? |
Maybe you are right. I am not going to risk . I am going to buy an Engle 28 mm lifter set tomorrow! |
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bugmandave Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2005 Posts: 642 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Send them off to webcamshafts for refacing. Og is always better than aftermarket. _________________ '63 Karmann Cabriolet L456 Rubin (Ruby Red)
'71 Westfalia campmobile tourist delivery
January '59 SWR panel
'63 Karmann Cabriolet L54 Poppy Red |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2348 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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bugmandave wrote: |
Send them off to webcamshafts for refacing. Og is always better than aftermarket. |
Not nessesarily. Back in the '70s, aftermarket cams and lifters were becoming available. Some of them were made of hardened steel, where the OG parts were made of sintered material. Mismatch there resulted in the worn cams in 500mi. that I spoke of earlier. We had many failures. When touching a lifter to a grinding wheel, one will show a white spark, the other yellow. I highly recommend using the lifters that the cam manufacturer recommends. IF there is a problem, they can not blame your choice of parts. Be sure to ask them to include a tube of assembly lube/mos of their preference. The first few MINUTES of operation can make a huge difference in cam life. Also ask what type of motor oil they prefer for break in. You don't want to be the one guy that has a problem. Been there...
Oh, by the way, industrial engines had very mild cams, as they were called upon to do service at a specific rpm, unlike road engines, and early 40hp engines used fat head lifters. Bottom clearance to the lifter boss can be a problem. Later style used a thinner head to negate these issues. Still need to check though. Another reason to use new lifters _________________ Jack Staggs
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Jacks wrote: |
bugmandave wrote: |
Send them off to webcamshafts for refacing. Og is always better than aftermarket. |
Not nessesarily. Back in the '70s, aftermarket cams and lifters were becoming available. Some of them were made of hardened steel, where the OG parts were made of sintered material. Mismatch there resulted in the worn cams in 500mi. that I spoke of earlier. We had many failures. When touching a lifter to a grinding wheel, one will show a white spark, the other yellow. I highly recommend using the lifters that the cam manufacturer recommends. IF there is a problem, they can not blame your choice of parts. Be sure to ask them to include a tube of assembly lube/mos of their preference. The first few MINUTES of operation can make a huge difference in cam life. Also ask what type of motor oil they prefer for break in. You don't want to be the one guy that has a problem. Been there...
Oh, by the way, industrial engines had very mild cams, as they were called upon to do service at a specific rpm, unlike road engines, and early 40hp engines used fat head lifters. Bottom clearance to the lifter boss can be a problem. Later style used a thinner head to negate these issues. Still need to check though. Another reason to use new lifters |
Thanks very much for your help! My descision can be seen on the pics
The lifters in my engine case were not fat. They are thin type. The lifters I bought today are the fat type. Hope I won't have a trouble with the bottom clearance to the lifter boss. I measured and the distance is 31 mm.
www.thesamba.com |
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Jacks wrote: |
bugmandave wrote: |
Send them off to webcamshafts for refacing. Og is always better than aftermarket. |
Not nessesarily. Back in the '70s, aftermarket cams and lifters were becoming available. Some of them were made of hardened steel, where the OG parts were made of sintered material. Mismatch there resulted in the worn cams in 500mi. that I spoke of earlier. We had many failures. When touching a lifter to a grinding wheel, one will show a white spark, the other yellow. I highly recommend using the lifters that the cam manufacturer recommends. IF there is a problem, they can not blame your choice of parts. Be sure to ask them to include a tube of assembly lube/mos of their preference. The first few MINUTES of operation can make a huge difference in cam life. Also ask what type of motor oil they prefer for break in. You don't want to be the one guy that has a problem. Been there...
Oh, by the way, industrial engines had very mild cams, as they were called upon to do service at a specific rpm, unlike road engines, and early 40hp engines used fat head lifters. Bottom clearance to the lifter boss can be a problem. Later style used a thinner head to negate these issues. Still need to check though. Another reason to use new lifters |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4343 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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I have to add to bug_65's post about reusing lifters; They can only be reused IF they're going back in the same case AND they were numbered according to their locations in the engine originally. You'd be gambling by using numbered lifters and cam in another block. How would you know if everything was machined the same as the old block?
Also, there is some truth in keeping cam/lifter brands together and following the grinder's recommendation, but in my many dealings with the new Engle in Paramount, I've found holes in this methodology.
Engle has at least two different billets in-house at all times. The CWC billet has been around for ages. The SC-1 billet, which has cast-in notches is a newer billet. It's probably been around for 10-15 years now. The CWC has been used with German reground, German Wizemann, Brazilian Riosulence, Brazilian 30mm "Bigfoots"...you name it. The SC-1 billet is of a much harder material. SCAT was the first company to introduce the billet, and they are "said" to have the only true compatible lifters, since their lifters are of a similar hardness.
If you ask Jack at Engle which lifters to use with ANY of their billets, he'll say Engle, for obvious reasons. Sales. If it fails, I guarantee they won't stand by their products. Their lifters are not made in-house. They buy them wholesale from some company that has horrible quality control with an Engle stamp on the shaft, then markets them as compatible lifters. Do they work with CWCs? Yes. Are they big, heavy, contributing toward valve float, have crowns of all different thicknesses, have undersized journals? The answer is also yes.
There is also the EP-12 billet out there, which is similar in hardness to the CWC. The markings are on the cams. Find out what you have, and select your lifters accordingly.
I buy Engle Camshafts, then use CB 28mm lifters, if it's a CWC. If SC-1, I use SCAT's new 71 gram "Window" lifters. Just broke in a SC-1 with SCATs at JayCee, and all went perfectly. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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What is the minimum required clearence between the lobe and the lifters? Is it 1 mm or 0,040 inch? Because, it seems I have to machine work the head of my lifters on the back side. |
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Kjell Roar Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008 Posts: 1326 Location: Norway
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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I have worked with motorcycles for 14 years, from the 80ties to 2001.
I worked with Honda, who had big camshaft problems on some engines from early/mid-80ies.
The easiest solution to the camshaft problem, was to use ester based full syntetic oil, we used Motul 300V. Its because it have an extreme oil film, that takes 22 000kg/sq cm before it breaks and you get metal against metal.
A mineral oil "only" manage 6-700 kg/sq cm pressure before the same happend.
And wear on new cams have to be metal against metal, eg the oil didnt manage the pressure.
We also changed a lot of camshafts without changing all lifters, but never put 2 used parts against each other, if they didnt had worked toghether before. One part with fresh metal, and one used, was ok, because the new one was run in to the used part. _________________ I got a historic car, every scratch got a history...
My car, Aug. 4th, 1955 / an early 56: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=610438 |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4343 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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That doesn't make sense to me... Cam lobes and lifters need to burnish together. They must make metal-to-metal contact, right? How else would they wear evenly together? _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Here is my engine:
When I turn it around with my hand, I hear a kind of "lifter" noise somewhere on the 3 rd and 4th side. Otherwise the engine has a beautiful voice, but in low RPM, so something like 7-800, I can hear this knocking,too. But, if I put more RPM, there is no voice! What could be the problem?? The clearence between the lobe and lifter are more than .04.... I used the stock valve springs, I was thinking about maybe they are too weak to hold the heavy Engle lifters?? What do you think? |
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bug_65 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2011 Posts: 14
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Your engine looks really good, great job.
I had a knocking in my engine at low rpms and was caused when the cam was at full lift the valve retainer would bottom out on the valve guide boss making a knocking sound. I suggest removing you rocker cover and turning the engine over by hand and see if the valve retainer is bottoming out.
I did not know what it was and ignored it and had to have my heads rebuilt with new guides and clearance done for the higher lift. |
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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bug_65 wrote: |
Your engine looks really good, great job.
I had a knocking in my engine at low rpms and was caused when the cam was at full lift the valve retainer would bottom out on the valve guide boss making a knocking sound. I suggest removing you rocker cover and turning the engine over by hand and see if the valve retainer is bottoming out.
I did not know what it was and ignored it and had to have my heads rebuilt with new guides and clearance done for the higher lift. |
Thanks very much! I will check it,but seems a different thing on my engine. I already pulled out the valve covers and did not see anything strange. |
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Today, I tried to figure out what could be the problem. First, I took down both rocker assemblies. Then turned around the engineand still heard the knocking voices. After that I took out the spark plugs. Started on the 3 rd cylinder and turned around the engine. There was no voice! Then went around with all other spark plugs, but the knocking voice is still on! So, finally I took the cylinder head and the cylinders. Everything seems very very clean and nice. Cannot find the problem....
My rod bearings are brand new Kolbenschmidt (German). The piston cylinder set is from AA Performance, the bearings for the pins in my rods are new. The rod doesn't touch the liner. I clearanced the engine case to have enough place for the pistons. The pistons doesn't touch the cylinder head at any points. The piston is 1,3 mm from the top to touch the cylinder head in all four cylinders.
ANY IDEA???
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Gearfinger Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2015 Posts: 46 Location: Under the Bridge
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:24 am Post subject: |
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This is a time when looking at the crank pulley when the knock showed would have helped. Might have noticed where in the stroke the noise showed.
Do you recall if the noise came at the "rockover" phase of top dead center or bottom dead center on #3? I'm thinking that rod isn't true, creating a side or twisting thrust upon the changing directional forces the crank rotation creates.
Or, the wrist pin bushing is worn or loose in the rod.
Or, ...
You did check to see if the noise went away with the clutch pedal pushed down, yes? |
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akomjathy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2004 Posts: 208
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Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Gearfinger wrote: |
This is a time when looking at the crank pulley when the knock showed would have helped. Might have noticed where in the stroke the noise showed.
Do you recall if the noise came at the "rockover" phase of top dead center or bottom dead center on #3? I'm thinking that rod isn't true, creating a side or twisting thrust upon the changing directional forces the crank rotation creates.
Or, the wrist pin bushing is worn or loose in the rod.
Or, ...
You did check to see if the noise went away with the clutch pedal pushed down, yes? |
Thanks for your response! I checked the noises were coming from 3 different places. I marked them on the crank pulley and took off the cylinder head and checked the position of the pistons. The noises came from the 3 rd cylinder and also from the 4th cylinder, but not from the other side. I heard it on the phase of the top dead center and also on the bottom dead center. Finally, yesterday I split the case again.
Maybe, you are right about the wrist pin bushing. Seems they are very nice, because they are from a low mile industrial engine, but not tight enough for an 1385 ccm engine. They were ok for the original 1200 ccm pistons/cylinders, but with this set the engine seems very very strong. Tomorrow I will measure all bushings again and maybe I will have to use my NOS rods....
The engine did not run in my car, only on the engine standing. But, waiting for it very much! |
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