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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: Steering box adjustment? |
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| My 411's steering has gotten pretty loose. Is there an adjustment screw & nut on the box? I slithered under the front of the car and had a quick look but didn't see anything obvious... |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, there is a locknut and slotted screw on top of the pitman arm shaft. Its up against the chassis and very hard to get to. Also there is a lash adjustment on the worm u der the forward plastic cap.....but you really cannot adjust it with the box in the car or oil in the box. Its mainly for setting pre-load on the two sets of ball bearings inside and is for usd on the work bench.
Its also rare that the steering box pitman arm adjuster makes that much difference.
The things you need to check are the idler arm bushing, centerlink condition and tie rod ends and the rubber isolator on the steering column. Ray |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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There is some slack in my 1972 411 Variants steering. When I'm under the car and steering wheel is turned, I can see the pitman arm moving slightly up and down.
I have a tight feeling replacement box and I think I'm going to replace the old one with it. The Haynes manual suggests to remove the pitman arm when removing the box from the car. Is this really nesessary? Can't i just take the box out with the pitman arm attached to the box?
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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| Lahti411 wrote: |
There is some slack in my 1972 411 Variants steering. When I'm under the car and steering wheel is turned, I can see the pitman arm moving slightly up and down.
I have a tight feeling replacement box and I think I'm going to replace the old one with it. The Haynes manual suggests to remove the pitman arm when removing the box from the car. Is this really nesessary? Can't i just take the box out with the pitman arm attached to the box? |
So.....is the Pitman arm moving up and down....or is it the idler arm?
Also......in many cases I have found....when it looks like the pitman arm is moving up and down its actually the centerlink pin that connects to it.
NO.....you do not need to remove the pitman arm. In fact its very hard to remove it without damaging the steering box....while the steering box is still in the car.
But.....you need to be ready to replace or rebuild the centerlink. In ahout 90% of cases tbe centerlink is in bad shape and its almost impossible to detect while its attached to the pitman arm and idler arm......until its REALLY shot.....and then it has so much play that it "looks" like a steering box issue 
I have the photos done from rebuilding two steering boxes. I did them 3 years ago and just have not had time to post them. I really need to rebuild my other spare so I can show proper preload on the bearings now that I have a proper tool for that.
When you remove the centerlink pin from the pitman and idler arms.....use a "pickle fork" style remover.....but.....put the slanted side of the fork against the pitman and idler arms and not,against the centerlink. This will prevent any sliding and grinding movement on the weaker center link. They can be rebuilt.
If you have a couple of weeks to wait.....I can get the rebuild pics up. Its not that hard. Really...in almost all of them....unless they ran with no oil forever....all of the bearings will be perfect and all it needs is new seals. I have also found that going to a semi-fluid grease like a 00 rating.....makes them not leak again and lubricates better. Ray |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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It's definately the pitman arm. Idler arm has bronze bushing with not many mileage on it and the centerlink I've rebuild with your instructions couple of years ago ☺
I will replace the steering box as I want to take the car to an inspection. I can then rebuild the other box later.
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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| Lahti411 wrote: |
It's definately the pitman arm. Idler arm has bronze bushing with not many mileage on it and the centerlink I've rebuild with your instructions couple of years ago ☺
I will replace the steering box as I want to take the car to an inspection. I can then rebuild the other box later. |
Yes. Its possible that the top adjusting nut or the end adjusting ring has come loose....and is allowing slack. Its not good for the box to run this way.
How much movement are you seeing? There is a spring pressure assembly inside under the vertical adjusting screw. It may just need adjusting.
Ray |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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Yeah, I have to check what's happened to the steering box. Too bad the adjusting screw is in a such difficult plase that adjusting is impossible, wht the box is is in place.
There is clearly visible movement in the axle. It makes a slight clunk at certain position and moves maybe 2-3 mm.
I remember seeing your steering box rebuild thread some years ago. I might have even saved the pictures somewhere.
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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| Lahti411 wrote: |
Yeah, I have to check what's happened to the steering box. Too bad the adjusting screw is in a such difficult plase that adjusting is impossible, wht the box is is in place.
There is clearly visible movement in the axle. It makes a slight clunk at certain position and moves maybe 2-3 mm.
I remember seeing your steering box rebuild thread some years ago. I might have even saved the pictures somewhere. |
Actually...I may have posted a "few" pictures of some parts of the steering box...but I have not yet done a "how to" yet.
Almost 4 years ago now...I stripped and refurbished 2 of them. One is sitting waiting for my car....the other went to ClassicCamper for his restoration in trade for another good box that needs basic refurbishment.
However....I have been working off an on on that how to. Its maybe a couple of nights work away from "launching".
The reason why its so slow....is that because these were the first two I have fully disassembled....It worked on them over 3 weeks and took my time. There are roughly 1000 photographs in the file. 
From what I was looking at yesterday from the original script for the how to....it will take about 150 of those photographs. Most of the writing and the parts and tools list was done 3 years ago. I have just been dragging my feet going through and sorting the photos.
Its really not that hard to do one of these boxes. They are really a work of art inside. Very worth doing a refurb and oil and seal change and doing proper adjustment. If you do that they will last FOREVER.
But....while its not hard and does not require any special tools with some preparation...or an inch pound torque wrench with no preparation....this is one of those things that you cannot be in a hurry for.
If your 411/412 is your daily driver....and you decide to start this Friday night...to have your car ready to go to work Monday...you may be taking a taxi Monday morning.
Aside from the cleaning.....and any painting....thats one time factor because this thing MUST be clean inside.....and the fact that you will start over on putting in the recirculating balls at least 2-3 times as you drop a few into the box  ....but once you realize how it all works...its actually a satisfying puzzle to work with...and its only about 3-4 hours of work.
I will spend a little bit of time this weekend...but I have work to do on the 1.8L build this week in the evenings. Gotta finish the oil pump. Ray |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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No need to hurry -atleast not because of me  I have lots of spares and I'm in no hurry with rebuilding one of my steering boxes. I just want to put the car back on the road as there is a big classic car event in my home town this weekend ☺ So, I'll put in another steering box and rebuild one later.
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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Is there a way to check the oil level in the steering box? I'd like to add oil to the "new" box before assembly but is there a way to do it and which oil should I use?
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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| Lahti411 wrote: |
| Is there a way to check the oil level in the steering box? I'd like to add oil to the "new" box before assembly but is there a way to do it and which oil should I use? |
Really from what I have found inside of them.....VW used wjat is technically a "gear grease".
It was a thickened, semi-fluid grease/oil along the lines of between an NLGI 00 grease and a 000 grease.
You can see the chart here....scroll down to classification.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLGI_consistency_number
But....a straight 90 weight gear oil ....at minimum....will suffice for lubrication. You can use a 140 to 250 weight gear oil if you can find them....and you will have less seal leakage.
I have been filling the rebuilt boxes with thixotropic 00 grease.....totally pumping them full. It will never ooze out even if the seals fail. Perfect in in freezing weather since its semi cluid. But since you cannot change to a grease until you strip and clean out the oil....just put in a 140 weight or greater gear oil and you will be just fine
On top of the box you will find a plastic plug that is usually sealed with anti tamper mastic. It will usually shatter because it is nylon. Be careful picking it out. You will need to find a plug for it. I tap these and put button head bolts in them.
Ray |
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hulken
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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| Did your finish a "howto» on the steering box renovation Ray? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Steering box adjustment? |
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| hulken wrote: |
| Did your finish a "howto» on the steering box renovation Ray? |
You know.....I,xould do one anytime. I have all the phot9s from two rebuilds. However....the only thing I did not do for those two.....is new bearings....because tbe bearings were perfect.
And I used kind of an archaic....though accurate...method of readjusting bearing preload.....so I d not photograph that part.
I used a 1/4" drive cross slide bar that I balanced on ....basically a skate bearing until the rod was dead center balanced. This was attached to the shaft with just bearings, worm and oil.....and I added gram weights until tbe turning torque met spec.
Its a totally valid method. I wanted to be able to show that....for tjose who cant afgord an inch pound, dial style wrench like I now have.
I have one more steering box that needs to be rebuilt. I may go ahead in the next wek or so and post the first rebuulds....and then supplement it.
Ray |
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