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question about lock washers
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RexMax
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:38 pm    Post subject: question about lock washers Reply with quote

So far I have not found one stinking lock washer on this motor. Just thin little washers. not even on the clutch plate bolts. I have never seen a motor that uses something like these on critical rotating parts. If I were to use them, what would you suggest? Split, internal star, external star, blue loctite? Did Focke-Wolf BF109's not use lock washers? Well, they lost the war. What more can I say.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

RexMax wrote:
So far I have not found one stinking lock washer on this motor. Just thin little Wave washers. not even on the clutch plate bolts. I have never seen a motor that uses something like these on critical rotating parts. If I were to use them, what would you suggest? Split, internal star, external star, blue loctite? Did Focke-Wolf BF109's not use lock washers? Well, they lost the war. What more can I say.

The, "Thin little washers" are likely wave washers. Wave washers are a type of lock washer.

Just because you have not seen a "split lock washer" on your VW.
Doesn't mean they are not engineered into your VW engine.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

I've seen metric wavy washers in the little drawers at Ace.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

I think that VW used wave style lock washers in most areas on these cars, although there are also a few split type lock washers here and there as well. E.g. I've seen split lock washers under the heads of front axle beam to frame bolts, heads of bolts holding down the rear torsion tube cover plates, etc. Mostly wave lock washers though -- they seem to work fine in my experience.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Steel chassis parts are fine, VW used them on the front brake backing plates too.
However, you dont want to use spilt ring lock washers against anything like the engine or trans case as they will damage the soft surfaces.
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RexMax
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Well here's what I did. On all exhaust components, because of what I feel is a lot of expansion and contraction due to heat, I used split lock washers. On rotating parts like the clutch plate to flywheel, I used blue loctite as recommended on Toyotas for both clutch plate to flywheel, or flex plate to torque converter. It just makes sense to me. Hell, the Briggs 24 HP on my riding mower uses lock washers on everything. I see no downside to using them.
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Tim Donahoe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Rex, the downside is that you came to the VW table with pre-conceived knowledge concerning auto mechanics. And you seem to want to keep to your old opinions and procedures, as though you weren't sitting at the VW table. But you have purchased an ACVW; and, although you may find it hard to let go of some old methods and procedures that seem perfectly reasonable on a Corvette, Toyota, or Chevy, you may eventually find that the VW engineers knew exactly what they were doing.

I just hope you don't fill your tires "American Style" on your Bug, and then complain why it gives you such a crappy ride.

For my part, I have found that our VW's come with a certain set of rules and procedures, that if followed, seem to work out just fine. For instance, I set my torque values as specified, and have never used a drop of Loctite on any part of my Bug. And I have never had a castellated rear wheel nut loosen up on me, nor a flywheel gland nut, or clutch pressure plate.

Not that doing so would hurt, but I've just never found it necessary.

On the other hand, I just bought an old Ford Ranger truck. And I've come to the conclusion that almost everything I know about VW's will do little to help me work on the thing (and it needs a lot of work, unfortunately). Trouble is, most of the Ford sites I've visited are haunted with folks who don't know shit from Shinola.

You, on the other hand, have come to the Samba. Here, there are many old salts who know exactly what they're doing. Many here are ex-VW mechanics.

Lucky you, right?

Tim
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Lingwendil
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Only place on a VW engine I use split lock washers is on the exhaust system, the rest of the motor I use the OEM wavy washers and they work fine.
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RexMax
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Tim Donahoe wrote:
Rex, the downside is that you came to the VW table with pre-conceived knowledge concerning auto mechanics. And you seem to want to keep to your old opinions and procedures, as though you weren't sitting at the VW table. But you have purchased an ACVW; and, although you may find it hard to let go of some old methods and procedures that seem perfectly reasonable on a Corvette, Toyota, or Chevy, you may eventually find that the VW engineers knew exactly what they were doing.

I just hope you don't fill your tires "American Style" on your Bug, and then complain why it gives you such a crappy ride.

For my part, I have found that our VW's come with a certain set of rules and procedures, that if followed, seem to work out just fine. For instance, I set my torque values as specified, and have never used a drop of Loctite on any part of my Bug. And I have never had a castellated rear wheel nut loosen up on me, nor a flywheel gland nut, or clutch pressure plate.

Not that doing so would hurt, but I've just never found it necessary.

On the other hand, I just bought an old Ford Ranger truck. And I've come to the conclusion that almost everything I know about VW's will do little to help me work on the thing (and it needs a lot of work, unfortunately). Trouble is, most of the Ford sites I've visited are haunted with folks who don't know shit from Shinola.

You, on the other hand, have come to the Samba. Here, there are many old salts who know exactly what they're doing. Many here are ex-VW mechanics.

Lucky you, right?

Tim
That's all well and good for you. It's your car and you can do whatever you like. I'm not a purist. To me, it's just a machine, and a 48 year old one at that. The automotive industry has come a long way in the last 50 years. For example, with the advent of modern sealants, paper gaskets have become a thing of the past. Sorry I can't help you with your Ford problem. I've only worked on one Ford in my entire life, and the only reason, it came with my wife. A Ford Escort. What a piece of shit. If it will help, try to think of that Ford as just another modern piece of machinery that you can't apply old world technology to.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Some of us value the car being as it was originally. Some only see it as a 50 something mode of transport. Some people think that Ford Escorts are shit.

There will be opposing views on everything.

However I think that the majority of people on here love the quaintness and idiosyncrasies of a 90 year old design. So if you get asked a question about the right way to do something a fair number of us will answer on how it was originally. Nothing wrong with that. If you want to use new ideas on your car go for it.

For me, the car is part of my history and I want to keep it like it was when it was new. Modifying it would be like putting air ride on a Gullwing Mercedes.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Does toyota use lockwashers? does honda? Wink

Clutch plate? ....aka clutch cover aka pressure plate right?
You can use internal or external star washers on that if you want.
Not necessary but it won't hurt besides tearing up the pressure plate but of only used once or twice no big deal.

I use flanged head grade 10.9 bolts torqued to 18 ft-lb, no special anything, and I'm not expecting any problems.
Blue loctite is ok, but not necessary.


Remember those need to be all the same weight to maintain balance.
Remember loctite does not cure right on zinc plating.

Split lock washers IMO should only be used in low torque situations like cooling tin, they are often one use only, also may tear up the surfaces.

NO lockwashers should be used directly against magnesium, they will just sink in and get loose faster.
On aluminum....it's sometimes the same problem but much less, so, sometimes depending on force and temperature.

There is a difference between making a fastener get stuck once VS getting the right tension VS one which can be re-used many times.
It really depends on what YOu are doing with it. Want to screw the next guy, sure, but..what if you are the next guy. Razz
Then over time you will learn.

On exhaust parts...ok, as a problem solver but, again it does not have to be necessary. And if they get hot then they lose their spring anyway so your looking more for mechanical interlock. If a short bolt can't accommodate the amount of movement going on in a joint what you can do is just use a spacer and a longer bolt, closer to solving the real problem. Locknuts lockwashers, safety wire, whatever, makes it so your fastener won't turn, but that might not be why it's getting loose. Think about it. Lots of tricks, but no one trick for all problems.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

viiking wrote:
Some of us value the car being as it was originally. Some only see it as a 50 something mode of transport. Some people think that Ford Escorts are shit.

There will be opposing views on everything.

However I think that the majority of people on here love the quaintness and idiosyncrasies of a 90 year old design. So if you get asked a question about the right way to do something a fair number of us will answer on how it was originally. Nothing wrong with that. If you want to use new ideas on your car go for it.

For me, the car is part of my history and I want to keep it like it was when it was new. Modifying it would be like putting air ride on a Gullwing Mercedes.
Change the water pump on a Ford Escort GT, then get back to me. Like I told Tim, this car is just another piece of machinery to me. Nothing special about it except my wife loves it. But then again, she loved her Ford Escort too. Life is about sacrifices.
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Tim Donahoe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Rex, show us a few photos of said albatross. I'd love to see it.

Tim
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

So what's wrong with the wavy lockwashers? I like them. They don't gouge out material. I can't recall ever having a problem of fasteners coming loose.

I have torn down engines where someone used split washers everywhere. It was a mess of an engine. Was it the split washer's fault? Probably not, but it spoke to the VW knowledge of the builder.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

On softer materials split washers will mar the surface, wavies wont Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

Lingwendil wrote:
On softer materials split washers will mar the surface, wavies wont Smile

A wave washer compresses and applies even tension. A split washer digs into both surfaces and "locks".

On 2 piece points, I use a wave washer for the movable side. If you use a split washer it will move the piece and change the gap/dwell.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: question about lock washers Reply with quote

what everyone else said(gouging chunks of alloy out when loosening), plus when dealing with engine and transmission situations you're much less likely to wind up with oil seepage through the split in the washer....bugs used wave washers on pressure plate bolts but type IVs used split washers...
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