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Woody419
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2015
Posts: 71
Location: Dayton, ohio
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 Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Woody419 wrote: |
It's funny how time changes opinions...lol. He's been fantastic with me and I look forward to helping him grow... Hopefully, I can have Pete build my Pro Bilt Beam before Winter.
He can also help with everything else ..fuel lines, rear suspension, and eventually The Brake Kit.
After rereading the thread...many of you have no business with a wrench..lol....others are Master Mechanics and understand the simple asembly of a nut and bolt brake kit.
Maybe I'm just not as picky as others ? |
Good for you. Post that opinion up in his feedback, not this thread. |
Yup, that's where "positive" feedback goes.
I'm probably 1 of those guys who who have no business with a wrench too. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Bob Brugge
Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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I started reading this thread as it was posted in another thread about brakes. I too am interested in upgrading my 70 drums to discs. What I found was a laugh riot of a pissing match. Holy Crap!!
It seems like the CSP solution has been much better thought out.
I have to wonder...How many of the Airkewld set ups were sent out with the wrong bolts. Not being a machinisht and only an amateur engineer leads me to believe that even tho the good folks at VW made thousands of these parts, the real variance between years is due to machining process updates and/or machine wear. Things not machining as well as they might have at the beginning of a production run. There fore, to my mind, it would not be super hard to drill down into the data and see what spacers are needed for what years.
Not taking the advice of the guy doing your tech article seems like a hugely bad idea to me.
If and when I do make this upgrade, I am going to have to farm it out anyway and will take my mechanics advice on the right kit to get. Knowing my mechanic, I would bet he would be plenty pissed off if he got the Airkewld kit.
Too bad you couldn't have given any empirical data on stopping distance, ease of finding replacement pads, or longevity of the rotors and calipers.
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| Bob Brugge wrote: |
I started reading this thread as it was posted in another thread about brakes. I too am interested in upgrading my 70 drums to discs. What I found was a laugh riot of a pissing match. Holy Crap!!
It seems like the CSP solution has been much better thought out.
I have to wonder...How many of the Airkewld set ups were sent out with the wrong bolts. Not being a machinisht and only an amateur engineer leads me to believe that even tho the good folks at VW made thousands of these parts, the real variance between years is due to machining process updates and/or machine wear. Things not machining as well as they might have at the beginning of a production run. There fore, to my mind, it would not be super hard to drill down into the data and see what spacers are needed for what years.
Not taking the advice of the guy doing your tech article seems like a hugely bad idea to me.
If and when I do make this upgrade, I am going to have to farm it out anyway and will take my mechanics advice on the right kit to get. Knowing my mechanic, I would bet he would be plenty pissed off if he got the Airkewld kit.
Too bad you couldn't have given any empirical data on stopping distance, ease of finding replacement pads, or longevity of the rotors and calipers. |
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you've probably got a bug. Parts for those cars are a little easier to find compared to a type 3. I realize you're not as familiar with a type 3 (neither is Pete), but these cars use entirely different beams, spindles, and brakes. An example of this is the 65 and earlier cars that use drum brakes all around, versus the 66 on cars that use disc brakes up front, and the 72-73 cars that use larger disc brake rotors and calipers from a type 4 (411-412).
Now getting back to what the comparison thread was all about, and that is a "bolt on" disc brake conversion for the 65 and earlier cars. Yes, the CSP kit is more thought out (has to comply with German TUV), and uses proper hardware, while the Airkewld kit uses off the shelf parts (aftermarket), combined together to make up the kit.
I your case (since you have a 70 bug), you'd be better off using a CB Performance or a SoCal industries kit to convert your set up. That is unless you're planning on keeping the car 4 lug, which you could then go with Ghia spindles, rotors, and calipers and be done with it using stock parts.
As far as a comparison data, you'd have to use the same size tires, and work within a controlled enviroment. But, not everone on this forum uses the same size, or brand of tire, so this alone would skew the data. I do know the SoCal wide 5 kit uses rabbit/golf/jetta pads. I say that, as I converted my 64 T-34 Ghia to wide 5 discs, and I used the SoCal kit.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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Update and write up coming soon for the rear CSP disc brake kit... |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| Update and write up coming soon for the rear CSP disc brake kit... |
Excellent...I am looking at them for my 412. Ray |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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I've found that the pads can be replaced with those from a 1993 Pontiac LeMans. It's the only car I can find with these calipers that was sold in the US - all of the rest of the cars are EU only.
The set that I bought was on closeout at RockAuto.com for $3. Now that I know they fit, I'll buy something with a different composition.
Replacement calipers are from either the Pontiac or a Daihatsu - same caliper, different logo stamped/cast into it. |
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daos
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 309
Location: Stockholm, SWE
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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there is one thing that really bugs me about the csp kit, and it's an aesthetic issue. why in the world did they choose to go with a 6 bolt pattern for the hub centre? it just looks completely wrong on a wide 5 wheel, like someone took some random parts and cobbled them together. that alone is a deal breaker for me. in that respect the airkewld version looks better, but they in turn completely missed the opportunity to reproduce the nice upswept radius in the centre of the hub.
has anyone tried with the isp west kit? certainly looks the part, would be interested to know more about the quality.
this is a really good comparison thread otherwise - bizarre exchange in the middle notwithstanding. |
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daos
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017
Posts: 309
Location: Stockholm, SWE
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| M113 wrote: |
SOOOOOO I made my own. Took 6 months to solve the damn slotted wheel with disk brakes vented rotors and 4 piston calipers. But I can say it can be done and no spacers required.
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that is quite the slick build. i'm toying with going down this road.. would you be willing to share some of your findings? dimensions, drawings if you have any, parts used etc? |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| daos wrote: |
there is one thing that really bugs me about the csp kit, and it's an aesthetic issue. why in the world did they choose to go with a 6 bolt pattern for the hub centre? it just looks completely wrong on a wide 5 wheel, like someone took some random parts and cobbled them together. that alone is a deal breaker for me. in that respect the airkewld version looks better, but they in turn completely missed the opportunity to reproduce the nice upswept radius in the centre of the hub.
has anyone tried with the isp west kit? certainly looks the part, would be interested to know more about the quality.
this is a really good comparison thread otherwise - bizarre exchange in the middle notwithstanding. |
I run this with trim rings and wheel covers so it doesn't bother me when it's put together. I will admit the aesthetics of it aren't ideal but with brakes - I take function over appearance any day. Run any aftermarket wheel and you won't see the 6 bolt spacing on the hub (non-issue). |
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Tvättbjörn
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 1431
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| daos wrote: |
there is one thing that really bugs me about the csp kit, and it's an aesthetic issue. why in the world did they choose to go with a 6 bolt pattern for the hub centre? it just looks completely wrong on a wide 5 wheel, like someone took some random parts and cobbled them together. that alone is a deal breaker for me. in that respect the airkewld version looks better, but they in turn completely missed the opportunity to reproduce the nice upswept radius in the centre of the hub.
has anyone tried with the isp west kit? certainly looks the part, would be interested to know more about the quality.
this is a really good comparison thread otherwise - bizarre exchange in the middle notwithstanding. |
There is an engineering reason for it. Do not forget. It has to pass TUV certification / safety standards to get approved to be legal and safe for the street use. Black rattle can spray will take care of that issue. |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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So just to add on to this thread, I recently followed in ataraxia's footsteps with the CSP front disc brake kit. I'm really happy with it! Installation was pretty straightforward and the disc brakes work and feel great.
A note on master cylinders: CSP recommends that you use their 20.64mm bore master cylinder with their disc brake kit.
Of course a stock '65 would have had a single-circuit m/c, but the PO of my car installed a later Type 3 disc brake dual circuit master cylinder, with a 19.05mm bore.
I ran the disc brakes with the 19.05mm master cylinder for a while, but I wasn't really happy with it. It works, and the pedal effort is very low, but I found the pedal travel to be longer than I would like. I felt like there was too much pedal travel before braking action even though the braking action was very good.
I did some deep dive research on master cylinders and the relationship of m/c bore vs. pedal stroke vs. pedal effort etc. Apparently disc brake calipers require the movement of more fluid volume than drum brake wheel cylinders. An increased m/c bore moves more fluid volume and will require less pedal stroke but at the cost of increased pedal effort (everything is a tradeoff).
I found some formulas and did the math and learned that increasing the m/c bore to 20.64mm would cut pedal travel by about 17% with a commensurate increase in pedal effort to achieve the same line pressure.
So I pulled the trigger and bought the CSP 20.64mm master cylinder which I installed this past weekend.
The test drive was a revelation! A nice high firm pedal with what I consider the "correct" amount of stroke before action with a minimal increase in pedal effort. Pedal effort is so low in this car anyway that the minimal increase is negligible in my book.
So I would strongly recommend that anyone installing this kit go ahead and get the CSP 20.64mm master cylinder along with it, even if you are keeping the rear drum brakes.
Bonus brake porn:
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Cypcode
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2019
Posts: 22
Location: CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| What lug nut specs do you use on those brakes if your using OEM 5x205 Vw bug steel wheels? |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13278
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| Cypcode wrote: |
| What lug nut specs do you use on those brakes if your using OEM 5x205 Vw bug steel wheels? |
ball seat, I believe mercedes - discount tire (americas tire on the west coast) let me go through their lugnuts and pick out what I needed. You probably won't get that lucky. M14 X 1.5mm thread ball seat
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| Cypcode wrote: |
| What lug nut specs do you use on those brakes if your using OEM 5x205 Vw bug steel wheels? |
ball seat, I believe mercedes - discount tire (americas tire on the west coast) let me go through their lugnuts and pick out what I needed. You probably won't get that lucky. M14 X 1.5mm thread ball seat |
Standard type 1-3 lug bolts, or similar for late water cooled VW's (my son's 2010 Jetta uses 14mm wheel bolts).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13278
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Erik G wrote: |
| Cypcode wrote: |
| What lug nut specs do you use on those brakes if your using OEM 5x205 Vw bug steel wheels? |
ball seat, I believe mercedes - discount tire (americas tire on the west coast) let me go through their lugnuts and pick out what I needed. You probably won't get that lucky. M14 X 1.5mm thread ball seat |
Standard type 1-3 lug bolts, or similar for late water cooled VW's (my son's 2010 Jetta uses 14mm wheel bolts). |
the pic above shows studs, which I presume is why he was looking. CSP uses these for buses and late cars, which were different from early bug. Early bug at M12x1.5
from CSP's install guide:
Our alloy hubs are delivered with wheel
studs M14x1.5 installed. So, in nearly all
applications it is necessary to change from
bolts to nuts.
NOTE: The studs are glued in place and must not
be removed! In nearly all applications the
wheel bolts or nuts have to be changed to
match the M14x1,5 thread.
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mdege
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2018
Posts: 940
Location: Niederkruechten, Germany
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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| I'm using M14 R12 ball seat lug nuts |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22422
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Front Disc Brakes - CSP and Airkewld compared |
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[quote="Erik G"][quote="Bobnotch"][quote="Erik G"]
| Cypcode wrote: |
from CSP's install guide:
Our alloy hubs are delivered with wheel
studs M14x1.5 installed. So, in nearly all
applications it is necessary to change from
bolts to nuts.
NOTE: The studs are glued in place and must not
be removed! In nearly all applications the
wheel bolts or nuts have to be changed to
match the M14x1,5 thread. |
On my late model type 3, I use 14.5mm on 1 end, and 1/2-20 on the other end (with red loctite on the hub end) due to running a shank or Crager style lug nuts on my own car.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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