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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5063
Location: Madisonville, La
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 Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| esde wrote: |
| Bruce, your aluminum hex bar and mine must've come from different manufacturers. There is no way mine would do those miles. The aluminum bar flexes in the center as the cable bracket rotates it. The instant there was tension on the cable arm, you could see the bar bow under the tension as the arm rotated the bar. Mine was flimsy like a freaking noodle, and it had nothing to do with the amount of return spring on the ends. And once something like thats been bent or flexed back and forth for a while, it just gets easier and easier to bend. That the arm isn't centered exactly didn't help either, as one side bowed more than the other. The steel bar is the way to go. |
That's exactly what was happening. Press the accelerator cable arm and the drivers side carb opens 1/8".... Passenger side nothing. Flimsy flimsy. At 2500 the stutter was like I was running on two cylinders. Way out of sync. The looser Heim joints helped a ton, but I also took the ball stud ends out(sloppy) and replaced with exhaust studs, jam nuts, and double washers. Much much better.
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62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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67jason
Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2005
Posts: 4741
Location: behind my back feet - Pittsburg CA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| esde wrote: |
| Bruce, your aluminum hex bar and mine must've come from different manufacturers. There is no way mine would do those miles. The aluminum bar flexes in the center as the cable bracket rotates it. The instant there was tension on the cable arm, you could see the bar bow under the tension as the arm rotated the bar. Mine was flimsy like a freaking noodle, and it had nothing to do with the amount of return spring on the ends. And once something like thats been bent or flexed back and forth for a while, it just gets easier and easier to bend. That the arm isn't centered exactly didn't help either, as one side bowed more than the other. The steel bar is the way to go. |
this sums up nicely exactly what the hexbar linkage on my wifes new ghia is doing. hexbar linkage just plain sucks in my opinion and experience. why put up with all that nonsense when there is perfectly capable and affordable linkage solutions out on the market?!
CSP linkage is so much better in every way, sealed bearing, no flex, super simple to synch etc.
_________________
67 bug x3
67 ghia
64 bug |
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3440
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:47 pm Post subject: CB hex |
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It seems like there are some "other" hex bars that might be of lower quality, as mentioned in some of these comments.
However, the OP has stated that he has a CB hex bar linkage. I have the aluminum CB hex bar and it does not bend...
_________________
Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| There are two sizes of hex bar. |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7393
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem with the hex bar is the wear that occurs in the end of the bar where the ball end rides. Over a few years it will wear a groove and you can grab the hex bar where it attaches to the air cleaner and wiggle it and there will be play. You can purchase one of those bearing kits as mentioned earlier, or press in a bearing in the end of the hex bar then turn down the ball sockets to fit, or just purchase a new bar every few years. That is the least costly solution. |
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67jason
Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2005
Posts: 4741
Location: behind my back feet - Pittsburg CA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| 74 Thing wrote: |
| The problem with the hex bar is the wear that occurs in the end of the bar where the ball end rides. Over a few years it will wear a groove and you can grab the hex bar where it attaches to the air cleaner and wiggle it and there will be play. You can purchase one of those bearing kits as mentioned earlier, or press in a bearing in the end of the hex bar then turn down the ball sockets to fit, or just purchase a new bar every few years. That is the least costly solution. |
or get a linkage that will last years and work great right outta the box 
_________________
67 bug x3
67 ghia
64 bug |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| CB changed the bar to steel some time ago, and fixed the tight hiem joint recently as well. |
The tight heim joints are 99% of my complaint with the CB linkage. All of them tighten up eventually. |
A friend brought over his new 48s for me to go through last weekend. He had the down links and heim joints on them from his CB linkage. I did observe they were quite tight. I put a drop of oil on every one and they were free.
Many times while on a road trip, I have lubed them by touching them with the end of the dip stick.
98k miles, and the linkage was well used when I installed it. Don't use extra return springs and the force needed to open the throttles is next to nothing.
About 10 years ago I helped a friend put together a custom. He didn't like the look of the CB hex bar, so we marked carefully where the ends and the center pull arms went, then we had the aluminum hex bar turned until it was fully round in the exposed areas. Even weakened like that, it worked just fine.
| 74 Thing wrote: |
| The problem with the hex bar is the wear that occurs in the end of the bar where the ball end rides. Over a few years it will wear a groove and you can grab the hex bar where it attaches to the air cleaner and wiggle it and there will be play. |
This is true, the bearing area of the ball stud is too small and it wears out the ID of the hex bar. A friend designed and makes this upgrade kit:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1725307
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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theastronaut
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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I bought a CB hex linkage kit when my '64 had 92,000 miles on it. It been on there since and I'm up to 167,000 miles. 75,000 miles on the linkage and it's still working great. The down rods are still in good shape, not too loose or too tight. The hex bar joints are tight as well. It stays in sync, no fiddling with it to keep them tuned. No complaints at all with the system.
First installed on the old 1600.
Reused on the 1679cc. I'll be reusing it again when it goes back in the car.
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Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Beetle Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'63 Beetle Vert
'66 Beetle
'88 Festiva L
'89 Festiva L
'64 Chevy C10
'66 Chevy C10 |
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fivelugshortaxle
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4254
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| CB changed the bar to steel some time ago, and fixed the tight hiem joint recently as well. |
Nope...My bar is aluminum and one of my heim joints is locked up. Bought the bar from cu right before I cranked the motor. Less than 2 months old. Pure shit
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc
Last edited by fivelugshortaxle on Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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First off turn off the spell check, it's rendered you impossible to understand.
Use a magnet to see if it is aluminum. The hex has been steel for well over 10 years but maybe you got some OLD stock???? Could happen.
If this is how you have installed it then of course it does not work right.
Move the arms in, they are way too far out man! and what is that growth on the right...return spring? |
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fivelugshortaxle
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4254
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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| modok wrote: |
First off turn off the spell check, it's rendered you impossible to understand.
Use a magnet to see if it is aluminum. The hex has been steel for well over 10 years but maybe you got some OLD stock???? Could happen.
If this is how you have installed it then of course it does not work right.
Move the arms in, they are way too far out man! and what is that growth on the right...return spring? |
no, it's not installed like that. Hahahaha
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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fivelugshortaxle
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4254
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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Little arms are pretty much vertical with motor in car now. That pic was taken a year ago simply mocking up Tim and fit. That growth is a filter that will be coming off and a line will be coming out in its place.
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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fivelugshortaxle
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4254
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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| modok wrote: |
First off turn off the spell check, it's rendered you impossible to understand.
Use a magnet to see if it is aluminum. The hex has been steel for well over 10 years but maybe you got some OLD stock???? Could happen.
If this is how you have installed it then of course it does not work right.
Move the arms in, they are way too far out man! and what is that growth on the right...return spring? |
It's aluminum. And the heim joint is frozen solid. I've got them synced perfectly now....just don't trust it...too flimsy. Both sides leave the stops at exactly same time and distance... Bar flexes too much. And that's not the setup I have on the motor. Those are offset manifolds and the 050 heads in that pic.
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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Ok post a new pic and we'll figure it out.
If the reason it's "aluminum' is because it's a knock off chinesium copy....then you have some splainin to do.
Cb is STEEL hex bar
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/hexcrossbar.htm |
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fivelugshortaxle
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4254
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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Should I lost a pic of my receipt from CB? Nothing to figure out...they are synced perfectly...I just don't trust it and the bulkiness of it is getting to me.
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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We can agree it is excessively heavy.
It HAS been the most universal linkage setup out there. Fits any combo of vehicle and manifold height..... and works for MOST people just fine. If anything being UNIVERSAL was a bad thing, as something that can be put together several ways often get put wrong.
Did something change? maybe so. Maybe they have changed it. I don't know, but the grass may not be greener elsewhere. CSP fits fine with sedan manifolds but.....not so good with tall manifolds.
| youngstah wrote: |
I was looking for more info here earlier too.
As there are multiple variables in the "clearance" issue I thought I'd post more pictures as some may be running similar problems as I try and resolve mine. Pita, after forkin out for a csp and these manifolds.
The solution I've come up with has revealed to me I obviously know little about the science and math of linkages. Maybe someone would care to explain or school us all in what we'd need to understand to resolve the prob I'm having?
2276 CB Big Beef Manifolds (offset manifolds) 44idf + csp idf kit + doghouse shroud.
1. Rods provided don't reach right carb.
2. Heater duct in the path of rod. (wrench holds rod at closest point to avoid shroud contact)...my attempt at figuring a diff solution.
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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I dont know how fivelug got a aluminum hex. I orded 3 kits in the last few years and all are steel.
If you purchased a kit within the last 2 years and it came with a aluminum hex I would email cb customer service and ask how you got that old artifact. Theres a explanation somewhere. I dont believe aluminum is a option even if someone wanted it.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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fivelugshortaxle
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4254
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:36 am Post subject: Re: Throttle Linkage Comparison- CB Hex Bar, CSP, Berg |
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| jpaull wrote: |
I dont know how fivelug got a aluminum hex. I orded 3 kits in the last few years and all are steel.
If you purchased a kit within the last 2 years and it came with a aluminum hex I would email cb customer service and ask how you got that old artifact. Theres a explanation somewhere. I dont believe aluminum is a option even if someone wanted it. |
My handy dandy telescoping find lost bolts magnet doesn't stick. Maybe should have done more research before I ordered the Vintage Speed linkage earlier tonight but maybe it works out......I don't have heater ducts....and I can get a piece of threaded rod at the hardware store for cheap if the rod is too short. Maybe it works. If not I'll pull the 36 horse shroud and try out my Berg linkage that I've never used. I'll find out soon enough. In the meantime, my hex bar linkage is synced just fine. I'd call it perfect but it may be .000000001 off. It's close enough. I just have grown to not like the bulky look.
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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