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Oregon Emission fail - high hydrocarbons
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Slimvest
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject: Oregon Emission fail - high hydrocarbons Reply with quote

Searched a bit but didn't find too much info on this.

My '87 GL failed two times now on emissions with hydrocarbons being 1650 and then 580 on the 2nd try.

First try, sat at idle in line for 45 min after 20min drive, so shame on me. The 2nd attempt was after driving 60+ miles from the Oregon coast and rolled right into the testing bay. Motor is a new 2.2L from Rocky Jennings with 6-7k miles on it that he installed. I haven't touched it since for tuning. Cat is probably 6 years old, O2 sensor is probably 4 years old (but need to check if Rocky replaced it), an i have a minimal exhaust leak near the y-pipe.

Thinking about swapping the O2 sensor if it's as old as I think, but figured I ping the Samba crew before i do. Thanks!
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prior to installing a new O2 sensor, you should consider repairing that y pipe exhaust leak that's causing your van to run rich.
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Cat would do more good than an O2 I bet. It can't be much of an exhaust leak, that is the first thing they look for an give an immediate fail I thought.

General tune up and oil change is good for high HC. Also if you back the timing off a hair, it will burn cleaner, then you can put it back to where it was (mark it). Also a quart of denatured alcohol in your tank will clean up emssions regardless what else you do. Usually wait til you are at a 1/4 tank, add quart or 1/2 gallon, test, then fill up afterwards. But that isn't really fixing anything, so you should really try the tune up stuff and CAT if you want to pass honestly, especially with a new engine.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's leaking in front of the O2 sensor hence the adjusted rich mixture.
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newfisher
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The denatured alcohol and backing timing off works well. Stuffing 000 steel wool up the pipe will also pass a test.
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:
It's leaking in front of the O2 sensor hence the adjusted rich mixture.


X2. Fix the exhaust leak then retest first before throwing anything else at it.
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WestyBob
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Oregon all they want to see is a catalytic converter and clean tail pipe sniffing. DEQ is a State contract group, not DMV.

It's virtually unheard of that they will bother with anything else unless it's painfully obvious like a pipe dragging on the ground or a mounted wheel without a tire.

On a rare occasion they may ask to see proof of insurance.

I agree with some of the others -- get the pipe leak repaired and do a complete tune-up.

Even changing out the engine oil/filter if it's old will help.

The engine should be running temp before going in to activate the cat.
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Slimvest
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, all.

The leak was at the "donut" junction going into the j pipe that connects to the cat. A slight drop of water would show up here upon cold starts. Tightened that up, changed oil/filter and swapped in some new NGKs. Can't find Bosch cap and rotor on a Sunday in Portland, it seems.

I only use the van every couple weeks in the summers and not much in winter. Maybe some regular driving will also help, but this wasn't an issue prior to the engine replacement. Will test again this week after I get a cap/rotor.
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Slimvest
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey all, I tried again and failed the same.

HC still about the same as prior to cap/rotor, plugs, oil change, & exhaust tightening: 650ish with a 220 limit.

Line was really short at the DEQ station, so I drove away, unplugged my O2 sensor in a parking lot, noting no change in idle or driving characteristics on the way back to the station. Tested again with pretty much the same results. What does this tell me?

Should i be looking for a Cat or an O2 sensor?
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GWTWTLW
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure your air flow meter is working properly. I failed a couple of years ago because I was running real rich due to using a computerized version that wasn't tuned very well. If yours isn't reading accurately, it could be running too rich.

An exhaust leak would definitely make it run rich too if it is prior to the O2 sensor.
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Slimvest
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still get 18-20mpg, so I'm guessing it's not running super rich. Safe assumption?
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WestyBob
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slimvest wrote:
I still get 18-20mpg, so I'm guessing it's not running super rich. Safe assumption?


Using a fist or a rubber mallet, give the cat a few light hits and see if you hear anything rattling around. If so it's the cat. And if the cat looks super old on the outside it could be the cat too.

But at this point when it could be this or that or this, I'd recommend taking it to a trusted mechanic and see if they can diagnose. Precision Motors on the inner east side may be able to help.
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slimvest wrote:
Hey all, I tried again and failed the same.

HC still about the same as prior to cap/rotor, plugs, oil change, & exhaust tightening: 650ish with a 220 limit.

Line was really short at the DEQ station, so I drove away, unplugged my O2 sensor in a parking lot, noting no change in idle or driving characteristics on the way back to the station. Tested again with pretty much the same results. What does this tell me?

Should i be looking for a Cat or an O2 sensor?


I assume that the readings you are telling us about are on the dynamometer portion of the test, and not the idle test. Can you give the full results for all the tests you have taken?

Having said that, a 4 year old oxygen sensor is old enough to call for replacement - - especially when disconnecting it does not change test results. A new cat is likely in order as well because the old one is likely damaged from running without a functioning O2 sensor for so long. If you do not pass with a new O2 and a new cat (good preventive maintenance anyway), then you need to look further.

My comments assume that you have eliminated all sources of vacuum leaks and your engine is not experiencing any misfiring.

One last comment - - it may be time to have your injectors sonically cleaned and balanced, if that was not done when the rebuild was done. Even moderate differences in injector flow rates and or spray patterns can cause an emissions fail, usually by causing idle-speed lean misfires.
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was me, I would back the timing off a bit and see how it does. Simple and it will lower your HC. But I would guess a new cat would help. you have done the other basic stiff and your  mileage is good, so probably nothing major wrong. And 6 years is good for a aftermarket cat.

I have a used cat with O2 sensor that operated perfectly, which I pulled for engine conversion. $25 plus shipping if you want to try that. P M me if you want pictures.

And if you get frustrated and just want to pass try the denatured alcohol and timing adjustment.
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

davevickery wrote:

I have a used cat with O2 sensor that operated perfectly, which I pulled for engine conversion. $25 plus shipping if you want to try that. P M me if you want pictures.


Winner!
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

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Slimvest
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you give the full results for all the tests you have taken?

I passed all other categories. HC number is from idle.


Many thanks to all. I've PM'd for the Cat from Dave.

Dug deep into my receipts last night. Cat was older than anticipated. Bought it in '07 and have 30k miles on it. Pretty lame for miles, in my opinion, but if my old motor was spitting crud into it maybe that aged it faster.

Thanks again, Samba crew! Hopefully my problems are soon to be over.
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nacradriver
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would fix your exhaust leak and considering you have a low mileage rebuilt engine may look to adjust your valves too...

Surprising how much this can clean things up... prior to taking mine in for a California "Nazi County" smog check, I changed out the O2 sensor (had the original one on there), plugs, air filter, changed oil, took it to my shop and had them adjust the valves and timing and the took it for a good 30 mile run on the highway.. and then went right to the smog shop

Here are the results

@ 15 MPH
HC = Measured 2, 36 was the average, and 122 was the max
CO = Measured .04, .12 is the average, and .72 is the max

@25 MPH
HC = Measured 8, 26 is the average, and 102 is the max
CO = Measured .05, .10 the average, and .91 the max

NO measurements well below the allowed as was was the percent CO2, and O2 at 0% right where is should be from what I understand.

Good luck
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Slimvest
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New cat and O2 installed and I passed.

The package with used cat and O2 that Davevickery so nicely offered was stolen off my front porch. Found the empty box in the alley near my house. Lovely!

As always, thanks everybody. On to fix the coolant leak I discovered in the line that runs around the top of the engine compartment. Rolling Eyes
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Hybrid VW
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, when I lived in WA we had a sniff test for emissions and my 1.8T swapped Scirocco running on standalone passed emissions with no cat at all Shocked That was 10+ years ago, so I don't have the limit and result numbers, but it shows what a good tune can do Smile
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mrshrimp
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just went thru this in Porltand as well. As opposed to taking to mechanic to troubleshoot after numerous fails and dead ends, I finally bit the bullet for a new cat that was only like $160 at Halsey automotive. Passed with flying colors. I have been told the the aftermarket cats only get you one or two passes these days, not sure why, maybe they use less platinum and lower quality materials. The cat I replaced only had about 30k on it.
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