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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: Looking for tips, 1600 Beetle FI in an early bay |
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There are just a handful of dead threads about doing this, I know surely I'm not the only idiot who has thought of it...
I love my early bay, love (mostly) the upright engine, and I'm starting to realize why FI is such a nice upgrade from a carb.
Where is a good place to start looking for ideas on this? I'm talking about FI theory.. real life experiences.. pros/cons.. Getting a complete FI set for a 1600 is not a small purchase..
Can FI be used successfully, and run well, on DP heads with standard carbureted-style heater boxes and exhaust, or would I be better off running the entire FI package? Is there enough range in the ECU to run well in a bus, IE not lean?
I am almost embarassed to ask these questions, the bay forum is a high school locker room and I just walked in and asked how to throw a football...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=519841
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1796056
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Robert in Memphis
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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I've been going back and forth on the FI switch over. I decided to wait, but leave room to do it down the road.
A beetle FI can work, anything is possible. All you're adding some extra electronics. Hell, you don't even have to run a return line to the tank if you don't feel like it.
I'd like to see how this turns out. I'll buy that fuel pump with the AN fittings off you 
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Man I'm nervous to put that pump back together with the replacement diaphragm Wolfsburg West sent me. The last thing I need is to turn my engine case into an aux fuel tank while I'm driving...
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Robert in Memphis
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Brian
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Location: Oceanside
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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I have a customers FI engine that they flaked on and seemingly abandoned, I'm seriously considering doing some beta testing in my bus with it, just have to solve the fuel return issue.
As for non FI heads it'll work but the smaller valves really do contribute to the whole atomization thing, it won't melt but it'll likely not be as efficient as a real AJ engine.
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
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Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| just have to solve the fuel return issue. |
You put a T in the sending line. People say that it's a terrible idea because then the fuel is too hot and needs to go back into the tank to cool down. Other people run with a T for years.
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borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4536
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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if i was to do this--which i have considered--i would want to use the mexi digifant system that is widely availabe in all the countries to the south of here.
LJet is a good system in it's own right, but is not as easy to deal with or as "modern" as digifant, IMO.
the motronic FI used by porsches of the same era is a kind of relative of digifant that uses crank sensors for ultra accuracy.
fun could be had, for sure 
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
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Location: Memphis
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3898
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| Man I'm nervous to put that pump back together with the replacement diaphragm Wolfsburg West sent me. The last thing I need is to turn my engine case into an aux fuel tank while I'm driving... |
My presumption is that even the bogus WW fuel pump diaphragm will "work", after a fashion, without burning your bus down, if it is installed correctly. Have you seen
this topic? - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1...ilding+jig
The whole point of preloading the diaphragm like that, is to ensure that when the fuel pump rod is at it's highest point, the diaphragm will not be stressed. The rod normally
rises to 13 mm above the pump flange, so there is even a 1 mm "margin of safety". However, with the crap WW diaphragm, which typically has a pull rod shorter than the original,
you must shim the hell out of the pump until the highest point reached by the rod above the flange/gasket stack is something like 10-11 mm (or whatever it takes). When you do that, the diaphragm can be installed like normal, and will not be ripped apart when you start the engine. You would be well advised to measure pump output pressure and volume after you
do that. I've not seen anyone who actually got that far with the WW kit, so if you get OK results with that method, then please report back. Based on my experience and others' with
the WW kit, I would not use any of the other parts unless they are examined in detail to make sure they work OK.
With the Pierburg/VW fuel pumps, a torn diaphragm will not dump gas into the crankcase, it will mostly dump it on TOP of the crankcase, via the drain/vent hole in the pump body. That is, of course, the
source of the extreme danger of using those defective WW diaphragms.
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Last edited by kreemoweet on Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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vwwestyman
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
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Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if you're going to go FI you won't have to worry about your pump leaking.
Also if you go the mexican route, you can always get OE parts from Antonio down in mexico.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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I agree the Mexi FI is far superior, but I have none of it and a big pile of bug L-jet stuff so I'm going with what's in stock.
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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It seems like I am confused on FI specifics - there is a difference between late model beetle FI, and Mexican beetle FI? I missed that.
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Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, completely different systems.
75-79 bug FI is Bosch L-jet (like a 75+ bus but smaller), Mexi FI is similar to later watercooled systems. A night and day difference as to how it senses engine parameters and adjusts the mixture.
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Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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I PM'd tram about this years ago, he deals a lot with T3 FI, and he had some thoughts. I can't find the message, but we concluded that bug L-Jet would be easier to retrofit than D-Jet, and Digifant would be even easier, though more expensive.
First, the tank return nipple is only half the tank battle. There are also baffles inside the tank that prevent fuel cavitation. Since the pump passes so much volume and the system needs constant high pressure, cavitation is a real issue around corners with low fuel, so to avoid a lean condition the supply needs to be more stable.
Second, fuel pumps are often cooled by passing fuel, so try to get as much recirculation as you can. I know some people only do summer desert crossings with a full tank of gas, since the pump will last longer that way…
Last, I don't know what the difference in heat exchangers are, but I imagine the flow characteristics could be different to match the intake and valve size differences.
But man, do I love me some L-Jet in a bug…
Robbie
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Brian
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Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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A return line isn't too hard to put on the tank. It's just routing the line. Which you can also just run a T in the line and bypass that.
I wonder what the size difference is from an early to a late tank? Probably just slap one in place of your early one and make a filler neck.
From what I've seen, yes the heat exchangers are different but they'd probably still fit in a bus with a ton of room.
Screw the stock stuff, go megasquirts
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
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Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian wrote: |
I wonder what the size difference is from an early to a late tank? Probably just slap one in place of your early one and make a filler neck.
Screw the stock stuff, go megasquirts |
Allegedly, you can separate the tank halves on the crimped seam. Then you can mount your early tank top on the late tank bottom and have a 100% mechanically perfect tank. That is, if you don't blow yourself up joining the two halves together. (Weld? Braze? Play-Doh and Prayers?)
MicroSquirt in a Vanagon, looks neat:
http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10392
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Brian
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yea, I've actually been wanting to do that because I still have a ton of shit in mine. And I want to put in foam and a rollover vent. I think you just have to uncrimp it then recrimp and braze the seam. Maybe a layer of playdoh too.
Or just get a race fuel cell. Brand new tank, new foam and already tapped for return lines.
Dale M. is another great resource for T1 EFI.
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:32 am Post subject: |
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I would not waste my time with the old shit.
I did a mexi swap. not too hateful...
Link
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VWCOOL
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Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| The 'old shit' works well - I own one here in Australia, and have owned another - and would be a good upgrade for a Bus. But I also reckon taking into consideration the effort of a transplant, availability of parts, plus the newer tech, the Mexibuig stuff would be better... |
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