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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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 Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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You may be into something with this too tight of an engine (just new tight) because the longer it ran the harder it was to tune. When I first got it up and the choke went off, I had it idling at 1100. But after a while longer I had to increase the idle to keep it running and the idle just kept falling off little bit by bit. I wonder if it just needs more breaking in. Maybe use a thinner oil for the first little while?
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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Alright, so my engine I've decided is tight (which is good.) or my starter is going bad. Because it is a slow turn over when hot. Either way it starts, so I'm not worried about that right now.
I took apart my distributor (at least enough to check everything) and it all moved smoothly and seemed in tact. I set the dwell to .016". Then I re-set and re-checked my timing.
Static: 0*
Idle (1500rpm with vacuum hoses attached): 30*-33*
Full mechanical advance hoses plugged: 28*
Max Advance with hoses attached: 44*
So Robbie, I agree at idle it seems high. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary from your write up on how to refurbish an 034 SVDA though.
I have the engine starting up easier now. I did adjust the idle from where it was previously, just slightly. But when I had the engine just "idling" and not adjusting anything it started to rev (1900rpm), then it would slowly drop over the course of about a minute to 1430rpm before surging back up to 1900rpm. My thought is this is an air leak somewhere. And I'm thinking it is my carb's throttle shaft. I currently have the old german solex that I got from MadMike on there, but I think it is about as sealed as a river. I should probably send it out to be rebuilt by Volkbitz. But I'm going to attempt again with the mexican brosal? that came on it just with the new jetting.
I don't have high hopes, but we'll see. In the mean time I'll be researching how to track down intake leaks. And probably finally reaching out to David for some help on this. I really wanted to figure it out myself, it's just defeating not being able to figure out the issue.
Any thoughts on my ranting/word vomit are always welcome. And opinions on if I should even bother with the 34 pict-3. Or should I get dual intakes and mount up my Weber 34 ICT's or wait, save up and buy some weber 40's... Or EFI? EFI would probably be the most reliable... I think it is a better option than the weber 40's personally.
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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ccpalmer
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2006
Posts: 3850
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:25 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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Something's wrong with your timing numbers. You have more advance at idle than at full mechanical advance. Where do you have your advance hose hooked up to your carburetor?
You should be at ~ 7.5* BTDC at idle.
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'71 Westy |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:16 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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I'm not too convinced. I am at 1500-1700 rpm when determining my "Idle" advance. And from what I find, the advance curve on the 034 with vacuum attached is very rapid.
I have my vacuum advance hose attached at the "vacuum port" in this picture:
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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I may of forgot to check if the throttle shaft was ok 
EFI is x-pensive 
40 idf's about $100 a piece on E-villbay, then pick up some CB linkage and filters&intakes 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:41 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| madmike wrote: |
I may of forgot to check if the throttle shaft was ok
EFI is x-pensive
40 idf's about $100 a piece on E-villbay, then pick up some CB linkage and filters&intakes |
EFI is reliable.
And I can't find anything other than cheap Chinese knock offs for $100. If you show me a pair of Spanish or Italian idf's id be interested for sure.
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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ccpalmer
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2006
Posts: 3850
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:04 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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Still; your advance is higher at idle than at high rpm. Something's not right...
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| ccpalmer wrote: |
| Still; your advance is higher at idle than at high rpm. Something's not right... |
One is with vacuum one is without. But I'll recheck the idle advance and report back with my rpm and advance.
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| Spike0180 wrote: |
EFI is reliable.
And I can't find anything other than cheap Chinese knock offs for $100. If you show me a pair of Spanish or Italian idf's id be interested for sure. |
and people wonder why I push my fine high quality Japanese engine conversions 
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Spike0180 wrote: |
EFI is reliable.
And I can't find anything other than cheap Chinese knock offs for $100. If you show me a pair of Spanish or Italian idf's id be interested for sure. |
and people wonder why I push my fine high quality Japanese engine conversions |
I have nothing against subi conversions. And if this engine dies and early death, I'll be looking into a suby conversion. Although it will also depend on how much time I have on my hands and if I have a garage to fabricate in, because it will take quite a bit fiddling and work to get it running and cooling right.
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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thought they were the made in spain one's
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Spike0180 wrote: |
EFI is reliable.
And I can't find anything other than cheap Chinese knock offs for $100. If you show me a pair of Spanish or Italian idf's id be interested for sure. |
and people wonder why I push my fine high quality Japanese engine conversions |
japan is making VW engines again?
Great!
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.ssS! |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Spike0180 wrote: |
EFI is reliable.
And I can't find anything other than cheap Chinese knock offs for $100. If you show me a pair of Spanish or Italian idf's id be interested for sure. |
and people wonder why I push my fine high quality Japanese engine conversions |
japan is making VW engines again?
Great! |
Japan ever made VW Engines? 
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| Spike0180 wrote: |
Static: 0*
Idle (1500rpm with vacuum hoses attached): 30*-33*
Full mechanical advance hoses plugged: 28*
Max Advance with hoses attached: 44*
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Fix this.
You have a sloppy SVDA and WAAAYYYY too much vacuum advance. The Performance Camshaft Engine Club has pretty much decided that you need 10°-12° of static timing at idle, then 28°-30° maximum mechanical advance. Vacuum advance is ONLY allowed if there is none at idle, a good amount under partial throttle, and none at full throttle. If your vacuum advance is different, disconnect and cap the vacuum port on the carb for now.
I have a feeling that your fast idle screw is in too far, opening your throttle plate and allowing vacuum advance at idle. This will also cause a wandering idle, similar to a vacuum leak, as leaky idle vacuum advance is a positive feedback mechanism, like a pack of wolves howling; once one starts, the others go with it until they run out of breath and the effect stops. Check to make sure your screw #1 (see diagram) is not touching the base of the fast idle cam, then turn it in 1/8th turn at a time until it just Barely Touches.
A little story:
SVDA distributors have mechanical advance mappings and mechanisms just like a 009. So if you remove and cap the vacuum hose, the car should still run and drive, although it will be a little jerky. Try this out, with your max mechanical timing set as close to 32° as you can get, (your idle will then be around 4°-5°, which might not be enough,) and see how it drives and runs. You'll probably need a few more turns out of the big bypass screw, (#3.)
Once you've established a base line of what your engine likes, we can get into the realm of modifying shit to accommodate your camshaft. Why, just last week I cracked open a cold one with Brian and bent his SVDA mechanical advance limiting tabs to curve his SVDA for higher idle timing. That's very likely going to be in your future.
Robbie
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| Spike0180 wrote: |
Static: 0*
Idle (1500rpm with vacuum hoses attached): 30*-33*
Full mechanical advance hoses plugged: 28*
Max Advance with hoses attached: 44*
|
Fix this.
You have a sloppy SVDA and WAAAYYYY too much vacuum advance. The Performance Camshaft Engine Club has pretty much decided that you need 10°-12° of static timing at idle, then 28°-30° maximum mechanical advance. Vacuum advance is ONLY allowed if there is none at idle, a good amount under partial throttle, and none at full throttle. If your vacuum advance is different, disconnect and cap the vacuum port on the carb for now.
I have a feeling that your fast idle screw is in too far, opening your throttle plate and allowing vacuum advance at idle. This will also cause a wandering idle, similar to a vacuum leak, as leaky idle vacuum advance is a positive feedback mechanism, like a pack of wolves howling; once one starts, the others go with it until they run out of breath and the effect stops. Check to make sure your screw #1 (see diagram) is not touching the base of the fast idle cam, then turn it in 1/8th turn at a time until it just Barely Touches.
A little story:
SVDA distributors have mechanical advance mappings and mechanisms just like a 009. So if you remove and cap the vacuum hose, the car should still run and drive, although it will be a little jerky. Try this out, with your max mechanical timing set as close to 32° as you can get, (your idle will then be around 4°-5°, which might not be enough,) and see how it drives and runs. You'll probably need a few more turns out of the big bypass screw, (#3.)
Once you've established a base line of what your engine likes, we can get into the realm of modifying shit to accommodate your camshaft. Why, just last week I cracked open a cold one with Brian and bent his SVDA mechanical advance limiting tabs to curve his SVDA for higher idle timing. That's very likely going to be in your future.
Robbie |
It is possible that I had the fast idle screwed in. I was fiddling with it to see if it helped any, I ever I don't think moved it back out. I just don't remember if that was before of after checking my timing.
I'll check my timing again with and without the vacuum. But with my "Idle" being at 1500rpm, isn't that where my vacuum advance should be kicking in and helping eliminate that flat spot? hmmm... because it definitely shouldn't be zero at 1500-1700rpm. But what should it be? is the graph in my previous post accurate?
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:18 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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SUCCESS! mostly. I threw my Mexican carb together with the god bits from the German soles and threw it on the car. I removed the vacuum and it idled at 900 right off the bat. I have it tuned now without vacuum advance. I even drove her around the block a couple times. I didn't notice a flat spot even (though I wasn't trying to get it to have one either)
Alright all timing is without vacuum:
Static: 0*
Idle: 5*btdc
3500rpm: 28*-30*
That carb is howling at idle though, it's sucking all the air it can. I'm wondering how it will do at higher engine speeds (I probably only got to 3500rpm). I'm thinking this is why guys drill bigger holes in their throttle plates? That should help with the vacuum advance too, shouldn't it? The air flow would reduce speed significantly (assuming the hole is big enough).
Does stretching of the mechanical advance mechanism just move your advance curve left by some X amount of rpm? So your advance would kick on sooner and Max out sooner?
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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A few things:
Vacuum advance is controlled ONLY by cracking open the throttle plate. Mechanical advance is controlled ONLY by speed.
Carbs have intake noise. Especially the idle bypass varieties. But the stock oil bath air cleaner does a beautiful job of silencing it right up. If it's hissing, then your idle bypass circuitry is doing its job.
The hole in the throttle plate is ONLY if your. IG brass speed screw is on the verge of falling out, like with a vacuum retard distributor that sucks your idle speed down 400+ RPM. Any unnecessary air passing the throttle plate just ruins your idle stability and drivability, so don't drill unless you HAVE to.
Bending the advance tabs inside the distributor stops the advance from going too far. Then when you time the engine back to 28-30* btdc at max advance again, your idle timing will be higher.
You still have an issue with your idle timing: static and idle timing should be the same, unless your idle speed is too fast. But if it drives well, you're ok to run it as is. Performance camshafts like more idle timing than stockers.
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
A few things:
Vacuum advance is controlled ONLY by cracking open the throttle plate. Mechanical advance is controlled ONLY by speed.
Carbs have intake noise. Especially the idle bypass varieties. But the stock oil bath air cleaner does a beautiful job of silencing it right up. If it's hissing, then your idle bypass circuitry is doing its job.
The hole in the throttle plate is ONLY if your. IG brass speed screw is on the verge of falling out, like with a vacuum retard distributor that sucks your idle speed down 400+ RPM. Any unnecessary air passing the throttle plate just ruins your idle stability and drivability, so don't drill unless you HAVE to.
Bending the advance tabs inside the distributor stops the advance from going too far. Then when you time the engine back to 28-30* btdc at max advance again, your idle timing will be higher.
You still have an issue with your idle timing: static and idle timing should be the same, unless your idle speed is too fast. But if it drives well, you're ok to run it as is. Performance camshafts like more idle timing than stockers.
Robbie |
I kept my idle at around 900-950 so probably a little fast, but it smoothed out a lot that way vs an idle of 800.
My thought is that the carb is taking in much more air than it would with a stock cam causing an increase in airflow which would be effecting the vacuum. But I am learning about how the vacuum advance system works right now. How and why it operates only under load. Maybe I just have a vacuum leak in my vacuum line..
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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RBurn
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2016
Posts: 115
Location: Northern Ca
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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with the sheet metal work are using a flange tool or doing butt welds? Its hard to see in the pics
What a project! Great to see that another bus is being saved.
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70 Karmann Ghia Vert
67 Beetle deluxe
62 Single Cab
70 T2 Model 221 *CARR FIRE Victim
70 T2 Model 231 *CARR FIRE Victim |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: My soon to be new 1970 vw transporter (restoration) |
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RBurn, what is done is done. If I could go back and re-do what I did/didn't do I would do this project different, but for a first ever "restoration" (more of a resurrection) and doing all the body work in a year, I'm satisfied.
I went for a test drive again yesterday. I pushed it a little more and found out some stuff. I found that I do have a flat spot under sudden throttle, so I'm probably a bit rich or lean, I'm not sure which. Or maybe I just need to get back my vacuum advance. I am also noticing that I'm struggling a bit with starting power from my starting system. So I removed my trans-body ground strap and I'm soaking that to clean it now. I'll be going over the rest of that electrical system if this doesn't help. I might also get my battery checked (even though it is new, It was probably left fairly depleted for some time... that's what happens when your car doesn't run.) Is there a way to rebuild/refresh my starter if needed? or am I stuck with some POS Chinese knock off?
Another interesting issue I noticed was that when I would get off idle and come to a stop sign, the idle sometimes took a few seconds (2-5) to drop down all the way, and would drop low when it did drop. To the point I was concerned it might shut off. Is this likely due to a vacuum leak?
Are there any suggestions on where to go with my vacuum advance issue? I was unable to do more testing with it attached because of my starting issue and time constraints, but I will be working on this all on Saturday.
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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