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late t4 rocker arm washers
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

anyone know where to get new rocker arm washers for T4 motors? Don't need a whole kit - just trying to locate new unworn spacer washers. Right now I am running OG hydraulic / GE style solid spacers but all my spacers are worn thin and I'd like to add some insurance against failure in this area. I know about the valve shims being substituted but would like something more like the original.

the GD & prior with springs took 025-109-435
the GE motors with solid spacers took 021-109-437
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would measure the stack you are running and check out mcmaster for a shoe in. If you are feeling frisky go w/ a bronze or sinterd metal to lower friction here while running a tighter gap to control the rocker loads. I may go this route on my motor with slightly more lift on the cam, and if I have no failure use it on my future big bus motor which will use much more lift.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone found these ? I have one rocker arm washer missing and have been unable to find a replacement. I will buy the whole assembly but I can't seem to find that either.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

(bump)

the T4 rocker arms have a hardened wave washer 021 109 437 on either side. I have been using the best ones from what I was able to collect but they show wear. I'd like to install new ones. The T1 are slightly a different size. What is everyone using for those washers?

021109437 20,6X26.5X0,5; 70
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

What you a re looking for are races for needle style thrust bearings. They come in ID and OD toatch many sizes.....come in numerous thickness and are hardened and precision ground usually on both sides.

The best place to find them is a bearing dealers. While McMaster carr sells a wide range of needle thrust bearings.....they do not list the actual thrust washers. They list sold seperately. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

Wonder if they are the same as used on Vanagon WBXer engines? You could also check with places like Pelican Parts.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

they are wavy. It looks like a flat washer goes between a rocker arm and tower, then a wavy , spacer, and wavy, then another flat washer between the next rocker and tower.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
they are wavy. It looks like a flat washer goes between a rocker arm and tower, then a wavy , spacer, and wavy, then another flat washer between the next rocker and tower.


Depends on whether you have solid spacers or not. On the 1.7 there is a flat thrust washer t each end of the spring between rocker arms and no washer between rockers and towers.

On the solid spacer set up I had on my modified 1.7 (cant for the life of me remember what they came off of or if I made them.....have to check notes).......it goes:

Tower--rocker arm--soliid thrust washer---wavy spring washer---solid thrust washer---- spacer----solid thrust washer---wavy spring washer ----solid thrust washer----rocker arm---tower.

You really only need the wavy spring washers when you dont have springs. The object is to keep the rockers oriented to one side......of course that supposes that hqving the rocker against the hardened tower puts it in the right orientation for geometry. If not you may need a thin shim between rocker and tower.

More usually...and I remember I found this with mine.....either the rocker face against the tower or the tower face against the rocker may need to be lapped for exact geometry.

Ideally......for the leastong term wear to parts you cant replace.....a tbrust shim on both sides of each rocker arm will create the least wear to the rocker arm asomh as they are softer than the rocker. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

1975 Kombi wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looks like part 12A which Steve wants is no longer available. Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

I would assume as SGKent mentioned....and because that is the solid spacer in that diagram....which has no spring and you have to keep the rockers loaded in one direction with something.......that part 12A is a "wavy" spring washer.....correct (i am asking because I cant tell from the diagram).

At least it has the size. I will see what I can find. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
I would assume as SGKent mentioned....and because that is the solid spacer in that diagram....which has no spring and you have to keep the rockers loaded in one direction with something.......that part 12A is a "wavy" spring washer.....correct (i am asking because I cant tell from the diagram).

At least it has the size. I will see what I can find. Ray


yes - 12a is a wavy washer. it is called #13 in the latest ETKA but it has the same part number as 12a. It looks like there is a thin flat washer between the towers and rockers arm, then a thin wavy washer, spacer and thin wavy washer between rocker arms. Mine are worn and I don't want one to crack somewhere down the line.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
I would assume as SGKent mentioned....and because that is the solid spacer in that diagram....which has no spring and you have to keep the rockers loaded in one direction with something.......that part 12A is a "wavy" spring washer.....correct (i am asking because I cant tell from the diagram).

At least it has the size. I will see what I can find. Ray


yes - 12a is a wavy washer. it is called #13 in the latest ETKA but it has the same part number as 12a. It looks like there is a thin flat washer between the towers and rockers arm, then a thin wavy washer, spacer and thin wavy washer between rocker arms. Mine are worn and I don't want one to crack somewhere down the line.


That...what you just noted...is why I did what I did. Cracking

Long ago...the rocker arms on my last 1.7L...and all of the associated parts...had roughly 200k+ miles on them. At one point in time I heard a noisey valve train and had a wave washer that literally wore through on the contact point.

I got some fresh ones...NOS actually from a VW Porsche/Audi shop in Dallas (the name of the shop was "lord of the Rings"...gotta live it!)...too bad they no longer service aircooled....anyhow....I also installed solid spacers on the engine at that time.

I had to make the solid spacers....IIRC. Anyhow I used a combination of original 1.7L parts and new spacers and this worked fantastic for over 60K miles. Much more quiet and better control than the stock spring and easier to set up spacing like this.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What you are looking for can be called a "wave sprig" or "wave washer".

they come in single wave, double wave and triple wave (or more) and are sometimes called single, double and triple "turn". They can also have what are called "shim" faces...like the shim washer in the distributor drive...or natural faces like what we use on the rocker shaft.

Sometimes these have variations called "flat rim".

These guys seem to have quite a bit of knowledge. Their sketches suck...but you get the drift.

http://www.wclco.com/spring-washers/wave-washers/

Take a look under the tabs to get an idea of the spring washer types.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Actually...the more I look at them...I think ours are a ssingle wave but just look like they have more waves from different angles.

Look carefully at the first picture I posted and compare to the single waveform on the website.

Oh...and you will need to know the free height and the thickness of the spring washer....I forgot to measure the thickness Embarassed ...but I did measure the free height at 0.143"/3.63mm

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

The spacers sold by The Type 4 store just use flat washers.

http://type4store.com/rocker-spacer-kit.html
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

What about using the solid spacer from Raby , the type 4 store . You get rid of the spring and the wave washers , leaving .006 " clearance if I recall correctly .
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

surfwagonorangevw wrote:
What about using the solid spacer from Raby , the type 4 store . You get rid of the spring and the wave washers , leaving .006 " clearance if I recall correctly .


the washer cuts the difference in rotation speed in half.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
The spacers sold by The Type 4 store just use flat washers.

http://type4store.com/rocker-spacer-kit.html


When I put my Camper Special together these solid spacers were a little off size and it ended up too tight. They required a bit of sanding off of one side to get it all to go together smoothly and work properly.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

otiswesty wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
The spacers sold by The Type 4 store just use flat washers.

http://type4store.com/rocker-spacer-kit.html


When I put my Camper Special together these solid spacers were a little off size and it ended up too tight. They required a bit of sanding off of one side to get it all to go together smoothly and work properly.


That is what the instructions say to do. You just need to take a little off and then you can make the final adjustment of the lateral movement of the rockers by pressing the towers together firmly with a feeler gauge inserted next to the spacer.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

I have a set of spacers from the type 4 store that came with my cam kit.

The ones in my pictures are from about 14 years ago.

Jake originally...and the type 4 store now (IIRC)...tell you up front that these are not a drop in part. They are slightly long so that you can adjust your set up for the variance of rocker arm castings and geometry needs.


The spacers from the type 4 store simply use a thrust washer...and correct set up which may be between .002" and .006" depending on your engine IIRC.

And...as SGKent notes....using a washer between the spacer and rocker cuts rotation speed wear....just like the shim pack on your flywheel.

I would think they would work well with or without a flat bushing/washer...but in the long run you would get less wear to both parts with a washer.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: late t4 rocker arm washers Reply with quote

I've been rethinking this lately, especially since yesterday afternoon when cleaning some valve train parts for a member here.

The original design is washer-spring-washer between the rocker arms. I really don't know why VW set it up this way but it was that way on 914-4 and 912-e engines also. The washers rarely break or wear out.

The next style was for the engines with hydraulic valves. The parts photos show it consisting of rocker-flat washer-wavy washer-spacer-wavy washer-flat washer-rocker. The wavy washers are no longer available but the other parts are.

The T4 store had the kits made to emulate the late style but the engine builder set the play. VW set it up to hold the rockers in place with the wavy washer. The clearance on the T4 store is said to be .006".
Quote:
Using a belt sander or file remove an even amount of material across the aluminum spacer, refitting it till no more than .006 of horizontal lash is found in the assembly with the unit torqued into place.


The photos Ray loaded above use what would be considered a variation on the VW late setup with an extra washer to take up play. This might have been how the late system was set up - I'd have to look at the supplement photos to see if they yield a photo. That said, the factory wavy washers are no longer available and most of the ones on engines are getting thinner from wear. This leaves only the T4 store set up if one wants unworn parts. The wavy washer was discontinued in 1998 and is part number 021-109-437. Good luck finding anything but worn ones. They are 20.6 mm ID, 26.5 mm OD and .5 mm thick. The compression loading is unknown but they are spring steel with several waves.

Last night looking at the screws on the parts I was cleaning - they were worn evenly and showed little damage or pitting - just wear. I have to think that the valve tips would have shown the same normal wear. So it got me thinking that maybe going back to the original factory springs on solid lifter engines might not be a bad idea instead of the spacers - especially on the lower RPM bus engines. That is how the solid lifter heads were built. While I see the spacers as an upgrade, and certainly with the heavier hydraulic valve springs one would not want the loads to move a rocker arm, but if one is running factory /E valve springs I wonder if the spacers aren't overkill in light of the fact that there are really only two bad choices these days (1) use worn wavy washers and risk one breaking or (2) use the T4 store setup and let the rockers move around a little.

I do think that if the wavy washers were still available new that would be the ultimate solution but they are not available in quantity if at all.

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