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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:28 am Post subject: Buggy Brake Lines and Fittings Options? |
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I have very limited knowledge of brake lines and fittings. I have assembled AN fittings and braided hose, but I don't know enough about thread and line sizes and such to make an informed decision.
I currently have a new Latest Rage Pedal assembly, which as afar as I can tell has 1/8th NPT threads. I have what I believe is EMPI disc brakes on the rear only.
I'd like to use stainless braided brake lines, but I'm not sure if the Latest Rage assembly has enough volume to overcome any brake line swelling, especially since the disc brakes have twin calipers. Stainless braided lines shouldn't swell much, like rubber lines, so can I get away with it?
If I convert to AN fittings would I use -4AN fittings and hose?
If I use steel brake lines would I use 1/4"? Single or double flare?
Thanks for any advice! Always learning! |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:28 am Post subject: |
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I would stay with all VW style steel and stainless lines and when necessary at master cylinder use a metric to imperial thread adapter( if necessary) ...
Your first assignment is verify what thread size ports are in master cylinder, this is a area where one should not guess... Improper operation of brakes or a leaking brake system are a nightmare on so many levels....
And all VW fitting are metric bubble flare, if you do not know how to do proper bubble flare stick to part that already have them...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Dale M. wrote: |
I would stay with all VW style steel and stainless lines and when necessary at master cylinder use a metric to imperial thread adapter( if necessary) ...
Your first assignment is verify what thread size ports are in master cylinder, this is a area where one should not guess... Improper operation of brakes or a leaking brake system are a nightmare on so many levels....
And all VW fitting are metric bubble flare, if you do not know how to do proper bubble flare stick to part that already have them...
Dale |
Finally verified the thread for the master cylinders. It is 1/8th NPT. I have no idea why Latest Rage doesn't put that in the description for the actual assembly. They have the info on the page for the cylinder itself.
So I need to order a 1/8th NPT male to 3/8th-24 female fitting with the proper flare, right? |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5360 Location: Lefty, CA
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Multi69s wrote: |
I really doubt that the threads are 1/8 NPT. More then likely they are M10 x 1.0. Both of these threads are extremely close, and many people tend to confuse them. That is just like the VW seat belt bolts. Most companies will sell you a 7/16 bolt, when they are really a M11. |
Information is limited on their products. I would think those details are important. I found a replacement master cylinder online (can't find it now) that says 1/8th NPT. I took the fitting from my CNC clutch slave and it fits perfectly so I'll take that to NAPA when I buy the fittings I need.
Another question. Is this a VW fitting with a special flare? It is seized at the 3/8th fitting so I can't inspect the flare. I didn't get it in the picture, but there is a compression fitting coupler on the 3/16th brake line that I can reuse. I was surprised to see compression fittings.
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Multi69s wrote: |
I really doubt that the threads are 1/8 NPT. More then likely they are M10 x 1.0. Both of these threads are extremely close, and many people tend to confuse them. That is just like the VW seat belt bolts. Most companies will sell you a 7/16 bolt, when they are really a M11. |
Information is limited on their products. I would think those details are important. I found a replacement master cylinder online (can't find it now) that says 1/8th NPT. I took the fitting from my CNC clutch slave and it fits perfectly so I'll take that to NAPA when I buy the fittings I need.
Another question. Is this a VW fitting with a special flare? It is seized at the 3/8th fitting so I can't inspect the flare. I didn't get it in the picture, but there is a compression fitting coupler on the 3/16th brake line that I can reuse. I was surprised to see compression fittings.
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Dont see compression fitting I see a stainless steel crimp (swage (sp?)) fitting with a standard steel line attached...
This would be a compression fitting...
Think you are dealing with 10 X 1 mm DIN/ISO bubble flare if it is all VW lines and brake parts.... And it is a few microns different in dimension hten 1/8 npt... So be really careful with sizes...
These may help...
http://www.malonespecialtyinc.com/Identifying_Threads.html
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Dont see compression fitting I see a stainless steel crimp (swage (sp?)) fitting with a standard steel line attached...
This would be a compression fitting...
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This is what I have. It is not pictured, but it is a couple inches out of frame on the 3/16th line.
The reason I was asking about the fitting pictured is because I plan to buy a flare tool, but I don't want to have to buy a different one just for the two fittings that may require a bubble flare. If that were the case then I will just stick with the compression fitting coupler since it seems to have worked fine. Eventually I will replace the rubber lines with stainless braided line, especially if the pedal feels spongy. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:52 am Post subject: |
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DO NOT use a compression fitting for brake lines! It is extremely unsafe, braking pressures during a panic stop will exceed the clamping forces of a compression fitting. Im sure Dale M wasn't suggesting the use of that but showed it to clarify what it was. (Copper line is also a big no no) _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:05 am Post subject: |
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I see what you're saying. These fittings have been in the buggy long before I got it and it never failed, but still. Why chance losing the brakes? I'll go ahead and upgrade to stainless braided. It's never going to be easier than now anyway. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Most of the "double flare" tools I've seen are a two step procedure, the first step makes the "bubble flare" & the second step compresses the the "bubble flare" into the "double flare", so most kits will do both. To avoid issues with incorrect fittings, I like to reuse the original fittings assuming they are in good shape. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Gotcha. I thought the flare tools were one or the other. I won't have any original fittings if I convert to stainless braided.
Here is what I'm thinking if you can sanity check me:
1/8 NPT male to 3/8th-24 female adapters x 2 from the master cylinders
3/8th- 24 male fitting X 2 for 3/16th stainless brake line from master cylinders.
3/8th- 24 elbow to turn brake
3/8th- 24 fittings X 2 from turn brake to each disc brake
3/8th- 24 male fittings X 2 to stainless braided adapter
3/8th- 24 female to -3AN male for adapting to stainless braided
-3AN female fitting to Stainless braided line to wheel cylinders
-3AN male to *** male adapter at wheel cylinders. *** I'll need to verify that thread. I may be able to reuse what is there, but I don't have eyes on it right now. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:13 am Post subject: |
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If you are going to fabricate your own lines, try getting the proper flare ends for the line to eliminate all the adapters. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:51 am Post subject: |
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There should be some places that make stainless braided lines that mate to a VW with the proper ends to avoid having to change over to AN fittings, I prefer this method, that way it easier to find a replacement at a parts store should you damage one. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
There should be some places that make stainless braided lines that mate to a VW with the proper ends to avoid having to change over to AN fittings, I prefer this method, that way it easier to find a replacement at a parts store should you damage one. |
It's a sand rail so if I can get away from VW fittings that would be ideal. I don't know why I didn't think of sticking to standard sizes with braided brake lines. I have experience with AN fittings after building my mini buggy. I'll look for standard fittings and line sizes. Thanks! |
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Aerindel Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015 Posts: 459 Location: Western Montana
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:30 am Post subject: |
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I have a latest rage peddle assembly and also had to build a brake system from scratch.
The threads ARE NOT NPT! They are M10 metric thread. You can buy an adapter for a few bucks from any decent auto parts store to adapt them to standard american or metric brake line.
That being said, you can force a 1/8 NPT to thread in an M10 and the soft aluminum and brass will somewhat conform and give you something that feels like a good joint. It may even work ok, but its still the wrong way to do it.
My fittings are a little complicated. I go from the master, to a M10 to american brake line adapter, to a brake line and then an adapter to 1/8 NPT input and output for my cutting brakes, more hardline to standard flare stainless braided lines at my suspension joints, to more hardline, to a short length of brake line with one end with a bubble flare to fit with the VW brakes. _________________ Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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Sandjunky Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015 Posts: 292 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Aerindel wrote: |
I have a latest rage peddle assembly and also had to build a brake system from scratch.
The threads ARE NOT NPT! They are M10 metric thread. You can buy an adapter for a few bucks from any decent auto parts store to adapt them to standard american or metric brake line.
That being said, you can force a 1/8 NPT to thread in an M10 and the soft aluminum and brass will somewhat conform and give you something that feels like a good joint. It may even work ok, but its still the wrong way to do it.
My fittings are a little complicated. I go from the master, to a M10 to american brake line adapter, to a brake line and then an adapter to 1/8 NPT input and output for my cutting brakes, more hardline to standard flare stainless braided lines at my suspension joints, to more hardline, to a short length of brake line with one end with a bubble flare to fit with the VW brakes. |
Thanks for the info! Kind of sad that Latest Rage doesn't have the proper thread listed for their own product.
As far as I can tell, the existing elbows for my turn brakes are 3/8th-24. All I should need is an adapter from the masters (brake and clutch) and fittings to convert from hard line to braided at the suspension joints. I plan to run braided all the way to the wheel cylinders on the disc brakes. The existing elbows there look like they are also 3/8th-24, but I will verify when I get to that point. The clutch slave cylinder came with the proper fitting so I will just run hard line straight to it.
Thanks again! I'm almost to the brake lines! Looking forward to it! |
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