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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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Ever test fire one without the fan shroud and all.
Yeah, I think Telford and I did that to Tom Powell's engine recently. He had an oil leak we were chasing using UV dye.
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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That sounds like fun. Would it mess up the later to come cam breakin run that I would make with the engine complete?
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| That sounds like fun. Would it mess up the later to come cam breakin run that I would make with the engine complete? |
Do you live in Colorado?
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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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No, What's Colorado got to do with it?
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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Sorry dan,
If you plan to do an extended run then you will need at least an oil cooler. What kind of run stand are you planning to use? It's good to monitor oil pressure if you can.
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Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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I keep putting off getting an engine stand. I will set the short block on a board on my garden cart, where it will be completed then started same as the other 2 I did. I will get a cheep oil gage may-be this one on Amazon:
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12727
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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| aeromech wrote: |
Ever test fire one without the fan shroud and all.
Yeah, I think Telford and I did that to Tom Powell's engine recently. He had an oil leak we were chasing using UV dye. |
Ay, my name isn't Telford.
The level of tin required is very particular to what exactly you're doing with the engine. I would not attempt any break-in procedure without all non-essential tin in place. (This is subjective. Since it's out of the car, the firewall tin is probably fine to be left off. Maybe the sled tins too, but I'm not going to speculate wildly on your behalf.)
During any break-in, the machining tolerances are VERY close if the engine is built properly, this generates more oil heat and debris than usually found in a running engine. Many machinists also say the "final" engine machine work is actually done in this stage, so if you are going to eventually run an oil filter, plumb it now, since more metal will be sloshing around to ruin your bearings at this point than any other in the engine's life. Do you really want to save $3 for a new oil filter here? It seems like a silly time to cheap out.
Robbie
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| No doubt. The run I did was not a break in. Just saying that a cooler and filter aren't needed unless you do a long run. Keeping that in mind though... you could always do the break in run and then put a few hundred miles on and then change the oil filter. The screen will catch anything big. |
HUH? The bearings will catch anything small. The first few minutes of run time is most critical for foreign material in an engine with full flow filtration.
After the first half hour I change the filter and do a post mortem exam on the filter, just to see if I see any sparkly stuff.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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all the tin is needed during a break-in or heat damage will occur.
It is best to fully assemble it and run it in either in the car or on a test stand. Between my own street cars, and racing I've remanufactured thousands of engines in my life. Only a few were broken in on a dyno. A test stand isn't much good for break in except for chasing oil leaks or breaking in a camshaft. As an engine breaks in beyond the camshaft, it needs varying loads on the rings to be sure they sweep their full areas. There are millions of VW T1 type engines that were run without full filtration. Any clean mechanic can build one and have no issues. Full filtration filters have a bypass in them so even with a filter there are times when it is bypassing the filter.
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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Ay, my name isn't Telford.
Oops, with everything going on this week my mind is pretty scrambled. Sorry Robbie, yes it was you there that night. Thanks and it was fun working with you.
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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
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Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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| SGKent wrote: |
There are millions of VW T1 type engines that were run without full filtration. Any clean mechanic can build one and have no issues. Full filtration filters have a bypass in them so even with a filter there are times when it is bypassing the filter. |
Very true. But not so many mechanics have surgery clean facilities. I have seen lots of near new bearings ruined by swarf and debris.
Millions of type 1 engines, yes, but none of the late ones. I think all late Mexican engines (not sure about Brazil), but also the 1600 Vanagon type 1 engine were all full flowed.
I agree, I can live with it either way. I have a 1956 Porsche engine I will assemble soon as stock, but a higher output Porsche 1600 I built a few decades ago, I full flowed at great expense. It is so easy to do full flow on a bug engine, why not?
But every US engine from about 1955 except the Chevy 235, Ford 223, and the Mopar flat head 6 used full flow. High end engines used both bypass and full flow filters.
The logic VW probably used was: The top end will outlast the bottom end twice. Not that the bottom end was so good, but the top so bad.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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In the early years I rebuilt several 36hp, a 40hp, 1300, 1500 and some single relief 1600 engines as well as going into and rebuilding a couple of 356A engines.
My VW engines always had bottom end failures usually a spun rod bearing at around 50000 miles.
The 356 engines would do something like have ring problems or head problems with a valve seat. But pretty sure the 356 problems were due worn out stuff going back into the engine. The A engines never ever left me stranded.
| 69doublecab wrote: |
| Porsche 1600 I built a few decades ago, I full flowed at great expense |
Are you going to full flowing your 56 Engine? Probably could be done with a external oil cooler filter adapter etc.
http://www.greatplainsas.com/scoilcooler.html
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Alan Brase
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Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
In the early years I rebuilt several 36hp, a 40hp, 1300, 1500 and some single relief 1600 engines as well as going into and rebuilding a couple of 356A engines.
My VW engines always had bottom end failures usually a spun rod bearing at around 50000 miles.
The 356 engines would do something like have ring problems or head problems with a valve seat. But pretty sure the 356 problems were due worn out stuff going back into the engine. The A engines never ever left me stranded.
| 69doublecab wrote: |
| Porsche 1600 I built a few decades ago, I full flowed at great expense |
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The first 1957 356A engine I had was apart and had 140,000 miles on it. Chrome worn thru on 3 barrels. Crank journals looked fine but were actually worn .007 in.!! Near 3 times the miles that VW's were achieving.
I had no history of the car, but all parts looked to be untouched originals.
This was a Solex 32PBIC engine with mesh filters. Routine cleaning and oiling will make them do quite well, but not as good as paper air filters.
Good stuff.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Danwvw
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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Yeah, Mine also, I never had the chrome lined aluminum cylinders but always wondered how they would be, I don't know! Everyone replaced them with Iron ones. Mine were Iron and original with so many miles they were quite wavy, I had the pistons fit with spacers and new rings, cylinders honed and put it back together and drove it that way sometime before putting on a set of NPR Big Bores. Those Solex 32 PBIC's were simple, and trouble free. I never realized how good a carb they actually were until I put one on a Single Port VW Engine.
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Alan Brase
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Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Yeah, Mine also, I never had the chrome lined aluminum cylinders but always wondered how they would be, I don't know! Everyone replaced them with Iron ones. Mine were Iron and original with so many miles they were quite wavy, I had the pistons fit with spacers and new rings, cylinders honed and put it back together and drove it that way sometime before putting on a set of NPR Big Bores. Those Solex 32 PBIC's were simple, and trouble free. I never realized how good a carb they actually were until I put one on a Single Port VW Engine. |
The dual 32 PBIC Solexes were fitted to the 60hp 1600 N while the 75 hp 1600S used 40 PBIC or maybe PICB. These were the granddaddy to the Brazil made Kadrons which were called 40 EIS or something like that.
I think pretty good carbs for moderate hp type 1 engines.
Genuine early Porsche 40 single Solexes are pretty scarce.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Danwvw
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Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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Then sometime in 57 they went to the 32NDIX Zeinths I always wanted them.
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Danwvw
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Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:30 pm Post subject: The W-100 Cam Profile Type 1 Engine |
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Ok the Scat Solid rocker shafts came from Power Haus and so I did a mock up using some old parts and the W-100 cam I have in this engine and it looks like this:
Everything @.050" Zero lash:
VW Type 1 Engine 1679cc 1.1:1 Stock Ratio Rockers
W-100 Camshaft
Valve Lift (Intake .432"), (Exhaust .412")
Intake Opens 12' BTDC, Exhaust Closes 8.5' ATDC
Intake Closes 45' ABDC, Exhaust Opens 45' BBDC
Gross Cam Lift: Calculated .432"/1.1=.392" Intake
Gross Cam Lift: Calculated .412"/1.1=.375" Exhaust
Duration @50 12+180+45=237'
Waiting on the L3 Heads From DRD!
A W-100 Cam Card:
Mock-Up
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Bulli Klinik
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Joined: January 16, 2005
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Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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I built virtually the same motor for a customers 66 Bus a few years back. 1678, stock DP heads, single carb, engle 100 with around 8.4:1. Originally built with baby Webers and it ran great. Ended up putting a stock carb on it and it still ran great. Idled well and pulled really hard.
You're gonna like this combo.
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Alan Brase
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Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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| Bulli Klinik wrote: |
I built virtually the same motor for a customers 66 Bus a few years back. 1678, stock DP heads, single carb, engle 100 with around 8.4:1. Originally built with baby Webers and it ran great. Ended up putting a stock carb on it and it still ran great. Idled well and pulled really hard.
You're gonna like this combo. |
Good to know. What was the bore and stroke again? Long term experience, overall engine life, ultimate failure would be interesting to know.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Stock ish Type 1 engine for the 1971 VW Bus? |
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They are just a stock 69mm stroke with the 88mm pistons that slip in at the case and machine fit the head same as a 90.5-92mm. I have heard the 88mm pistons had some failures due to the piston would break in two at the wrist pins if over revived but those problems supposedly have been eliminated Probably not a good piston choice for a racing engine though. My Piston with rings and wrist pins are matched at 584.6 grams which is pretty heavy. I have about 12000 miles on one engine with them and have pulled 60mph in 3rd a few times in the VW Bus with them. AA vs Mahles. Is interesting to read about them.
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