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Inside panel goop/glue? (fixing rattles, interior bracing)
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61Scout
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:49 pm    Post subject: Inside panel goop/glue? (fixing rattles, interior bracing) Reply with quote

Hey all. So just wondering what this stuff is:

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It came from between the exterior panels and the inside bracing:
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It's all dried up and brittle, not doing anything but causing rattles. It seems like a tar-based type product, not flexible like seam sealer or silicone in any way. So what's the best thing to use when replacing this goop/glue?

-Kevin
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Last edited by 61Scout on Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3m 08115
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wesitarz
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rubberized asphalt undercoat product?
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atomatom
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

most likely some kind of seam sealer. perhaps it is time to refresh it? Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro has the fix. I was going to have these welded on, which would burn my paint. But the 3M™ Panel Bonding Adhesive looks like the right stuff.
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ X2. Very Happy
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3-M 8115 is the ticket to get rid of the rattling-

But you're going to have to get all of whatever seam sealer / goop outa there for it to be able to cure to a solid bond on that reinforcement.

Not sure how you're going to get it all out of that inner panel.
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd use a scraper to get as much as you can. If some is too stuck to scrape off I'd call it good and let it bond to the remainder.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Wash the surfaces with soap and water to remove water soluble contaminants.

Follow the soap and water wash with an appropriate VOC Compliant 3M cleaning
product for removal of other surface contaminants. Reference the 3M Automotive
Aftermarket Catalog for a suitable product.

2. Remove all rust, primer and paint from the areas to be bonded or welded using a
Scotch-Brite® Clean & Strip Disc or 3M grade 50 Grinding Disc."

Do this and the panel adhesive will do what you want it to do.
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61Scout
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies. Guess I'll have to pony up the coin for the special applicator and panel adhesive.

Luckily the van is pretty much rust free, so no worries there. The VW tar stuff is so baked through from the desert sun here that it just falls off without much effort. So clean up and prep shouldn't be much of an issue. I think getting the gun where I need to be might be a challenge, but then I think I could simply have a piece of tubing on the end of the nozzle to direct the adhesive. In any case, I'll get it sorted. Thanks again everyone! SAMBA!!!

-Kevin
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Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=

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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is a two part adhesive that requires a special gun and mixing tip you can often get by with this hack. I've been able to remove the cap from each tube (don't mix the caps up) and press out from each tube an equal amount on a paper plate, mix with a stick and apply. Recap tubes for next time. It is not elegant but gets me by.....
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd go ahead and use Sikaflex Polyurethane adhesive on those joints. It sticks like a mother to all surfaces. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:36 pm    Post subject: 3M Super Weather Stripping Adhesive Reply with quote

I found a similar situation when I did this mod:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=464749

My expert urged me to use 3M Super Weatherstripping Adhesive because it doesn't require surface preparation, is flexible like panel adhesive, and if it can bond rubber to metal it can bond metal to metal. I used magnets to clamp the pieces together.

It's held!

Best!
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<If it is a two part adhesive that requires a special gun and mixing tip you can often get by with this hack. I've been able to remove the cap from each tube (don't mix the caps up) and press out from each tube an equal amount on a paper plate,>>

Nyet.
Look at the tubes.
One is twice the size of the other.
The hardener side is half of the product size.
So, do not mix the two parts equally--it's about 2 parts of the black sealer product, one part yellow hardener.

<<mix with a stick and apply. >>
This is good--

<<Recap tubes for next time.>>
Tap the bottom end of the tubes on a bench to back up the products from the end of the tubes.
Wipe the threaded end off well with lacquer thinner so there is no product that can possibly mix together when it's capped up.
Put a drop of oil or grease on the threads of the cap so none of the mix you missed will harden on the cap threads.
Toss the entire 8115 dispenser in the refrigerator.
It will last forever, or till the next time you need it.

I keep glues, body adhesive, paint hardener's in a reefer in the garage--delegated for stuff like this so it is good for eons.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:
<<If it is a two part adhesive that requires a special gun and mixing tip you can often get by with this hack. I've been able to remove the cap from each tube (don't mix the caps up) and press out from each tube an equal amount on a paper plate,>>

Nyet.
Look at the tubes.
One is twice the size of the other.
The hardener side is half of the product size.
So, do not mix the two parts equally--it's about 2 parts of the black sealer product, one part yellow hardener.

<<mix with a stick and apply. >>
This is good--

<<Recap tubes for next time.>>
Tap the bottom end of the tubes on a bench to back up the products from the end of the tubes.
Wipe the threaded end off well with lacquer thinner so there is no product that can possibly mix together when it's capped up.
Put a drop of oil or grease on the threads of the cap so none of the mix you missed will harden on the cap threads.
Toss the entire 8115 dispenser in the refrigerator.
It will last forever, or till the next time you need it.

I keep glues, body adhesive, paint hardener's in a reefer in the garage--delegated for stuff like this so it is good of eons.


Yep. The adhesive I used was a 50/50 mix, you'll need to follow the manufacturer mix ratio of course.
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Yep.
As I had mentioned--Do Not Mix The 8115 in equal amounts if your not using the gun and mixing small amounts on your own by pushing on the dispenser pistons inside of the tubes to get the stuff out.

Look at the diameter of the tube on the right side which is the adhesive, and the diameter of the tube on the left, which is the hardener.

Two obviously different diameter tubes where if used right with the mixer end on the on the tubes would only dispense half as much of the hardener than the product.


It'll make the adhesive too brittle with equal amounts of hardener to adhesive--won't work as the mfg. intended.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the vans were new, that was a semi-soft foam-like product, not a rigid product like some of the adhesive being mentioned. It simply dried up to the hard substance that you see today. The softer product allowed the two panels to move independently which is important for this type of brace location. With a big, flat panel, a rigidly mounted brace in the center can transfer its location to the outside panel where you can see it when the metal expands and contracts in the heat (direct sun) and in extreme conditions can leave permanent deformation lines in the outer panel. I'm not saying that that will happen in this case, but that brace was definitely not meant to be mounted rigidly to the outer panel and definitely wasn't mounted rigidly from the factory.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christopher Schimke wrote:
When the vans were new, that was a semi-soft foam-like product, not a rigid product like some of the adhesive being mentioned. It simply dried up to the hard substance that you see today. The softer product allowed the two panels to move independently which is important for this type of brace location. With a big, flat panel, a rigidly mounted brace in the center can transfer its location to the outside panel where you can see it when the metal expands and contracts in the heat (direct sun) and in extreme conditions can leave permanent deformation lines in the outer panel. I'm not saying that that will happen in this case, but that brace was definitely not meant to be mounted rigidly to the outer panel and definitely wasn't mounted rigidly from the factory.


I was wondering about that... I mean, if the engineers meant for the panels to move independently. The spacing is clearly too far away for welding. That being said, is there a better or alternative product to the 3M 8115?

-Kevin
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1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=

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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever adhesive was used on the interior panel support was way prior to the introduction of permanent panel adhesive and was the best that they had.
Reinforcements using older technology would have been spot welded, but at the time the van was manufactured VW used what was currently available to speed in production, thus make it less expensive to manufacture.

If you ever have been into a --lets say a rear quarter panel of a newer vehicle, you'd find that the rear package shelf support under the back window glued solid to the inside of quarter panel.

Tear into any late model Van--Chevy, or Ford.
The inner supports are glued to the outer panels.

The adhesive doesn't cause the outside or inside panel rigid,it will still allow it to flex with the rest of the body-as even a totally welded up vehicle would do.

The adhesive is just a faster, easier, less expensive way of fastening the inner supports to the outer in production--that's all.

It'll still flex.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christopher Schimke wrote:
When the vans were new, that was a semi-soft foam-like product, not a rigid product like some of the adhesive being mentioned. It simply dried up to the hard substance that you see today. The softer product allowed the two panels to move independently which is important for this type of brace location. With a big, flat panel, a rigidly mounted brace in the center can transfer its location to the outside panel where you can see it when the metal expands and contracts in the heat (direct sun) and in extreme conditions can leave permanent deformation lines in the outer panel. I'm not saying that that will happen in this case, but that brace was definitely not meant to be mounted rigidly to the outer panel and definitely wasn't mounted rigidly from the factory.


I agree 100% with this statement. I would not try to bond that panel to the brace, it could leave a mark on the outside. use something flexible. Is that brace really rubbing on the panel anyway???

Note the old stuff is a foam like material, this was never meant to be a structural bond. I suspect this brace was used to prevent a large dent is if some one leans up on the van's side. It need not be bonded as prior posters have suggested.

You bond that too rigid and you may have the panel warp in the sun!

use some flexible stuff or leave it be. No structural glue here please!!!!
Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink Wink
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