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PRND2L Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2015 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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I wanted to share my procedure for replacing the final drive seals on the differential for an automatic transmission 1990 Vanagon.
I've seen a few other procedures out there but only for manual transmissions which are very different than the A/T differential.
You can use the Bentley procedure on page 37.10. But I found it almost no help at all
You can easily do this procedure with the transmission and differential in place.
There's lots of space around the diff to work.
I did the whole procedure with the back of the van up on steel ramps in about 2 hours.
Tools Needed:
- 6mm Hex bit (to remove drive flange)
- long flat head screw driver
- torque wrench
- 17mm Hex bit or "nut jam tool"
- 17mm socket
Parts Needed:
- 2 new final drive oil seals (original VW part # 018-409-399) I used the same part from a Quantum (part # 016-409-399B)
- 1.25L SAE 80W, SAE 80W/90 hyphoid gear oil.
- moly grease
Procedure:
Here is a picture to orient you.
This is the passenger side of the differential where the axle is mounted to the drive flange. The torque converter is to the left and the automatic transmission is on the right. The black differential pan is on the bottom. The large hex socket is the diff fill hole.
1) First remove the drive axles
I won't go over the procedure to remove the drive axles. But it is simple enough.
There is a detailed description on how to remove both rear drive axles here
<<http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_16_9/cv_joint_maintenence.html>>
Go down to the section "CV Joint Removal and Replacement"
(I recommend you read the entire article and inspect/replace/repair your CV joints while they are out.)
When the axles are removed all you will be left with are the drive flanges sticking out of the side of the differential.
Before removing the drive flange take some time now to clean as much of the crud as you can off of the differential as possible.
Especially everything directly above the drive flange.
When you remove the drive flange you don't want any dirt getting in to the differential!
2) Remove Drive Flange
The drive flange is held into the differential by a single bolt that has a 6mm hex socket.
Use a 6mm hex bit (circled in green) to remove the centre bolt holding the drive flange to the diff.
(The other bit is a 12mm 12point bit (T40) that is used to remove the drive axle bolts.)
Use 2 axle bolts as shown below to help you get the drive flange centre bolt out.
The drive flange should now pull straight out.
3) Remove old seal
My seals were so worn that they came out with the drive flange
You will most likely have to pry them out.
Wrap some tape on the end of the long flat screw driver to avoid scratching anything. Then insert the end behind the seal and pry away!
It should normally take quite a bit of force.
4) Clean everything!
Here is picture of both of the drive flanges cleaned up and ready to go back in
A bit of kerosene and a brass brush got them almost looking new!
Notice that they are different heights.
The one on the right (tall one) is the Passenger side drive flange.
The left one (shorter one) is the Driver side drive flange.
5) Prepare and install new seals
I noticed that Bentley says "fill space between seal lips with multi-purpose grease"
I couldn't find any reference to having to do this with oil seals anywhere else. I ended up packing them with some moly grease I had.
Insert the oil seal into the opening with the 'greased' side facing inside. The outside of the oil seal will be flat.
It will only go part of the way in by hand! Don't just leave it here!
You will have to drive it in the rest of the way. It should eventually be well seated in the opening.
I used a mallet and a piece of hardwood that was about as wide as the seal diameter (55mm - 2 1/4")
Make sure the wood is touching opposite sides of the seal when you are driving it in so it goes in straight.
Here's how it looked when the seal was driven as far in as it would go.
6) Install the drive flange
You remember which drive flange goes on which side right?
Insert the drive flange slowly until it bottoms out, then twist it slightly to make sure the splines are engaged properly before pushing it all the way in.
Insert the correct bolt and use the 6mm hex bit to torque it down to 25 Nm ( 18 ft.lb)
You may have to install 2 drive bolts and use a screw driver like in the bolt removal in order to get enough leverage.
7.) Do the removal and installation for the other side.
8.) Fill Differential with gear oil
Remove the diff oil plug with either a 17mm Hex bit or you can make a "nut jam tool" out of a 17mm 1" bolt and 2 17mm nuts like this.
I just filled the diff with 80W/90 gear oil until it started to run out of the fill hole.
My diff pan does not have a leak so I decided to not take off the pan and drain the oil.
One because there is no local replacement gasket and I didn't want to fiddle with silicone.
Two because the seals have been bad for a few months now and I have refilled it several times this summer
Then replace and tighten the fill plug.
9.) Re-install the Drive Axles.
10.) Go for a drive!
-Zander _________________ '90 Westfalia Automatic |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7877 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Nice! Added to the FAQ. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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xlnt, detailed instructions
- just to clarify, this is not the same as the oil seals between the A/T and the diff., which is often required to prevent destruction of the differential R&P, and about which GoWesty says requires removal of the A/T section
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=305 |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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You want to smear grease on the contact area of the seal between the two lips. Where you put the grease is not where it is needed. Always lube the lips of a seal when you are putting it in. A lot of people have opinions here but some lube is better than nothing, be it oil or grease.
Since your old seals fell out I would also probably have glued the new ones in with Permatex or some other slow drying sticky sealer. |
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gacrawford Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2014 Posts: 1 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Final Drive Oil Seal: Automatic Transmission |
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Thanks for posting a great article. The fact that you specified the part# has ended a 3 day headache for me- why does Cip1, along with many other suppliers,( apart from "Airhead Parts), quote part# 091-301-189 when it obviously doesn't fit and your does? Thanks again. PS Anyone know a supplier for the correct part# in Canada? Thanks. |
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skelly Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 Posts: 45 Location: Upper peninsula, MI
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Final Drive Oil Seal: Automatic Transmission |
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awesome write up and pics... just blew an hour trying to find out this info! Here's a link to the supplier I found with the correct seals for 5 bucks each
https://www.hansautoparts.com/016409399BSeal.aspx |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Final Drive Oil Seal: Automatic Transmission |
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The only thing the grease is doing where you put it is diluting/contaminating your transmission fluid. Your seal lips are not even lubricated which is the whole reason for the grease. It is not unlikely that the un-lubricated seal lips will burn and leak or cause the seal to spin and self-destruct like the old ones.
Hans Auto Parts sells low quality knockoff parts made in China. I would not use one of their oil seals on one of my vehicles.
The seals are readily available from the major Vanagon vendors and I would trust those far more than Hans. E.g. https://www.vancafe.com/018409399-p/018409399.htm |
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pierrox Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2013 Posts: 257 Location: Paris, London, The Alps, North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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That's a great write up and I'll put it on the list of things to do to my inherited from Dad 1986 Vanagon.
Merian wrote: |
xlnt, detailed instructions
- just to clarify, this is not the same as the oil seals between the A/T and the diff., which is often required to prevent destruction of the differential R&P, and about which GoWesty says requires removal of the A/T section
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=305 |
I read about this and started to freak out a bit as the aforementioned Vanagon has 200.000km on its clock and has never had this operation done. The transmission doesn't feel 100% right - especially once warm. Anybody made a write up for it? I saw a YouTube video that showed where the seals are supposed to go but its maker never made the "how to" video he had promised... _________________ Our bus is on Instagram
instagram.com/biencuitbus |
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Eric_Taylor Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2011 Posts: 291 Location: Bend, Oregon
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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Thread revival!
I did this project today, and this is a very helpful write up. After a drive, I'm still seeing fluid coming out of the same spot. Thoughts? I did fill the diff to the brim, so perhaps it's a bit overfilled. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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What do you mean fill the differential to the brim? It gets filled to the bottom of the fill hole. Does it appear to be leaking from the seal or from elsewhere? |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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Note on the original post, the proper tool for removing the axle bolts is a 8mm triple square bit and not a 6 point Torx . A triple square adapter that is ~3 inches long makes the job easier than a shorter one.
The automatic differential takes 90wt GL-5 gear oil, though a 80w90 multigrade GL-5 would be fine.
Also the job is easier if you buy and use a seal removal tool. This same style tool is helpful for other seals on the vehicle as well.
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32367 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Eric_Taylor Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2011 Posts: 291 Location: Bend, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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Thanks for the responses here. I'll give a little more detail .
I did use a 6mm to remove the bolt for the drive flange and it fit well. per the Bentley I torqued the bolt to 18 ft/lb and that was no problem.
In saying I filled it to the brim, I opened the drain/fill hole to the left of the passenger side flange and filled it with the same diff fluid and weight that my mechanic put in during the last change of the diff. I filled it until it ran out of the hole, per instructions i've seen numerous places. This is a very seasoned vanagon wrench, who is well known here for custom vanagon work, so I trust the fluid weight is correct, though I would have to go get the bottle at my shop to give you the exact measurement.
After driving, when I looked at the bottom of the flange, there is gear oil seeping out. After filling, I cleaned the area and got the vast majority of it. This area was clean before the drive and now wet after the drive.
Is there an adjustment in the trans i'm missing? Was the torque too low? |
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3546 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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Couple of 3 things can go against you....
The stub axle can have a slight groove in it where the seal lip rides, with enough wear no lip type seal can be expect to be tight against a worn spot on a shaft .
O- Ring seal AROUND the plate where the seal gets installed into , can be leaking a bit and your new seal is not at fault. See Bentley diagram for more info.
Last things, poor seal quality or possibly seal not installed flat against Transaxles, with the seal barely cocked at an angle in its mounting hole
Also check your vents on top of the Final Drive/Diff and Auto trans. Simple caps sitting on tubes, the caps need to be able to move up and down easily, venting pressure out of their assemblies if required. Caps can get rusted shut.
For what it’s worth, I had stub axle seal leakage with new seals , mostly in cold temps, then it stopped. ( and yes, level of gear oil was still good... )
Maybe the seals wore in a bit, either way, I’m happy _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50216
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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jlrftype7 wrote: |
Couple of 3 things can go against you....
The stub axle can have a slight groove in it where the seal lip rides, with enough wear no lip type seal can be expect to be tight against a worn spot on a shaft .
O- Ring seal AROUND the plate where the seal gets installed into , can be leaking a bit and your new seal is not at fault. See Bentley diagram for more info.
Last things, poor seal quality or possibly seal not installed flat against Transaxles, with the seal barely cocked at an angle in its mounting hole
Also check your vents on top of the Final Drive/Diff and Auto trans. Simple caps sitting on tubes, the caps need to be able to move up and down easily, venting pressure out of their assemblies if required. Caps can get rusted shut.
For what it’s worth, I had stub axle seal leakage with new seals , mostly in cold temps, then it stopped. ( and yes, level of gear oil was still good... )
Maybe the seals wore in a bit, either way, I’m happy |
The cap covers up a spring loaded check valve and plays only a minor roll in sealing or venting, unless it is totally gobbed up with oily dirt. An occasional twist is all that is needed to keep it clear |
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3546 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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Wildthings wrote: |
jlrftype7 wrote: |
Couple of 3 things can go against you....
The stub axle can have a slight groove in it where the seal lip rides, with enough wear no lip type seal can be expect to be tight against a worn spot on a shaft .
O- Ring seal AROUND the plate where the seal gets installed into , can be leaking a bit and your new seal is not at fault. See Bentley diagram for more info.
Last things, poor seal quality or possibly seal not installed flat against Transaxles, with the seal barely cocked at an angle in its mounting hole
Also check your vents on top of the Final Drive/Diff and Auto trans. Simple caps sitting on tubes, the caps need to be able to move up and down easily, venting pressure out of their assemblies if required. Caps can get rusted shut.
For what it’s worth, I had stub axle seal leakage with new seals , mostly in cold temps, then it stopped. ( and yes, level of gear oil was still good... )
Maybe the seals wore in a bit, either way, I’m happy |
The cap covers up a spring loaded check valve and plays only a minor roll in sealing or venting, unless it is totally gobbed up with oily dirt. An occasional twist is all that is needed to keep it clear |
. Both of mine were rust and dirt clogged when I got our Vanagon in September 2018. I had to gently remove the caps and clean everything up, then tap the caps back on... _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1917 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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Eric_Taylor wrote: |
After driving, when I looked at the bottom of the flange, there is gear oil seeping out. After filling, I cleaned the area and got the vast majority of it. This area was clean before the drive and now wet after the drive.
Is there an adjustment in the trans i'm missing? Was the torque too low? |
This is a helpful thread, but the original post on this thread omits the replacement of the o-rings in the ring gear adjusting rings (pictured below). Without replacement of these o-rings, you're not completely addressing the potential leak points.
Here's the necessary part at Van Cafe.
One must mark the position of the rings on the ring and transaxle (see the white mark on one of the rings below), remove them while counting turns, replace the o-rings, and then replace the rings with the same turns, to the same mark--unless you want to open the pan and adjust the ring gear backlash.
See page 39.60 of the Bentley for info on how to adjust the rings for backlash, which is the difficult part of working with the adjusting rings, or see the Peloquin install post I made on my automatic transaxle thread, which illustrates how to properly set the adjusting rings.
kourt
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AceTaylor Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2009 Posts: 136 Location: PERKASIE, PA
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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Just a couple of notes from my experiences. Take them for what they're worth.
That cast iron final drive section is like a sponge. It wicks up and holds oil. Like a sponge, gravity will pull the oil down and collect at a low point and drip after sitting for a period of time. It will do it for weeks. It will take a dozen cans of brake cleaner or several trips to the coin op car wash to get all the oil out of the cast iron. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 16972 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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I have a vague memory that the locks for these rings are accessed with the pan off unlike the manual transmission where you can completely access the rings from the outside. I apologize if my memory has failed. _________________ ☮️ |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1917 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Drive Flange Oil Seals: Automatic Transmission |
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You're 100% correct. One must remove the pan to open the locks, and then remove the rings. Thanks for catching that detail--it's important!
kourt
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